No room for two needles in stitching holes (pics)

[SUP]

@jcuk instead of first punching round holes and then using an awl individually on each hole to shape it, isn't it easier to case the stitches? Same result 0f angled stitches...isn't it? Unless I am missing something..

[Dannyman]

2 hours ago, SUP said:

If you are using bought patterns, often, the distance between the stitching holes in the pattern do not exactly match any set of chisels like the one you have mentioned above. This discrepancy occurs because the method of measuring the distances between prongs varies. Many sellers, e.g. Dieselpunk.ro, use expensive chisel sets like  Sinebrok chisels. For his patterns I use ordinary but also good chisels off Amazon, where the 6 and 9 prong chisels don't work but the 2 prong ones do. The same set works perfectly for patterns bought from other sellers off Etsy and I can use the 6 and 9 prong chisels there.

So for the times when your chisel sets don't work for a pattern,  you need single hole punches. Another reason would be because many pattern sellers tell you the size of the holes needed, e.g. 1mm or 1.5mm. because they expect you to use punches. Once you know the diameter of your chisel-punched holes of course, you can use chisels.

Now about using the diamond stitching chisels, the patterns are often not made with those in mind, so the directions of the angles might differ in different parts of your product unless you map them all correctly. Much easier to punch round holes and case the stitches to get the required angles. Easier and faster, at least for me.

Now, while it is true that punching holes actually takes off a bit of the leather while chisels only make a slit  through the leather, most of the patterns have holes far enough apart not to much weaken the leather. For smaller items like wallets and watch straps I do not know since I don't make them.  I think they will need finer holes and smaller stitches closer together than, say, a backpack or handbag or saddle. 

Thanks for your explanation SUP. It's very clear .

@jcuk: Thanks for the trick. That's a simple but smart one... I'll remember that...

@toxo: 

[jcuk]

5 hours ago, SUP said:

@jcuk instead of first punching round holes and then using an awl individually on each hole to shape it, isn't it easier to case the stitches? Same result 0f angled stitches...isn't it? Unless I am missing something..

I have never stitched using round holes, i did watch the video with Nigel Armitage doing this as always he explains things very well also he explains how casting the stitch adds no strength to the stitch but will give you the angle some people like, have to say some don't, me i do think it looks so much better.  Most of my work consist of repairing and making saddlery so i use the traditional method for stitching needle and awl, over time if you want to use the needle and awl method you will start to refine the method you use, at least that what happened to me but you have to understand i was taught this method by attending saddlery courses long before youtube. But i do think think there are some very good youtube vids to be watched and also some terrible ones in my eyes. If it was me just starting out and had no leather working courses near, i would not look much further than some off the links below. One thing you will notice they all stitch towards themselves, to its just foreign to stitch away. And there may be the odd occasion you might have to do this but i cant remember the last time i have had to do this.

https://www.youtube.com/@UKSaddlerytrainingcoursesuk

https://www.youtube.com/@ArmitageLeather

https://www.youtube.com/@JHLeather

https://www.youtube.com/@LeathercraftMasterclas 

Some of these also hold on-line courses which may be of help.

Hope this helps

JCUK

[SUP]

@jcuk thank you for that detailed explanation. Being still new to leatherwork (since end of Jan 2023) there is so much I don't know. It seems to me that the more I learn the more I realize I don't know!

I will watch those videos. I will not have to hunt for the good ones, since you have provided them.

I stitch towards myself too. After watching very many videos las year, I did learn enough to stitch away from me but it was a bit uncomfortable so I stopped.

Now I can't wait to see those videos and learn the prick-and-awl method. (and all projects under way get set aside! All for family, so they won't complain.)

See but my question still is this:

With pricking chisels and then use of an awl, the hole is not punched first. The holes are just positioned with pricks, so that awl punch is the first time the leather gets perforated for each hole. Therefore, it will be a small hole.

If a stitching awl is used on a hole already punched, will it not widen that hole? Unless of course, smaller holes are punched deliberately and the awl used is sized accordingly.? Did I just answer my own question?

[jcuk]

Pricking irons which is what i use, will only mark the stitching marks they do not punch all the way through the leather that is what the awl is for it does take time to master this method but to its better to have this skill than not. Yes the stitching chisels will punch all the way through the leather will get a lot people up and running learning to saddle stitch. Pricking iron and stitching chisels are not the same thing. There is a thread pinned here some where explaining about the difference. 

[toxo]

11 minutes ago, SUP said:

@jcuk thank you for that detailed explanation. Being still new to leatherwork (since end of Jan 2023) there is so much I don't know. It seems to me that the more I learn the more I realize I don't know!

I will watch those videos. I will not have to hunt for the good ones, since you have provided them.

I stitch towards myself too. After watching very many videos las year, I did learn enough to stitch away from me but it was a bit uncomfortable so I stopped.

Now I can't wait to see those videos and learn the prick-and-awl method. (and all projects under way get set aside! All for family, so they won't complain.)

See but my question still is this:

With pricking chisels and then use of an awl, the hole is not punched first. The holes are just positioned with pricks, so that awl punch is the first time the leather gets perforated for each hole. Therefore, it will be a small hole.

If a stitching awl is used on a hole already punched, will it not widen that hole? Unless of course, smaller holes are punched deliberately and the awl used is sized accordingly.? Did I just answer my own question?

Don't over think it. A pricking iron or a pricking wheel will mark for penetration later. A stitching chisel will mark and penetrate at the same time. Just scribe your stitching line, then with your multi pronged chisel you hang the first prong over the edge which ensures everything will marry up and start to drive the chisel through the leather along the scribed line. Start sewing.

[SUP]

@toxo. I will. 

[Dannyman]

Even two more questions if that's all right :)

My current chisel, that I showed in the picture, is diamond shaped and toothed. Is this common? It's near impossible to get it out of the leather, after punching.

I am thinking of buying a set of three chisels of this kind, on your recommendations, is this any good? Can this be considered a decent one?

[DieselTech]

29 minutes ago, Dannyman said:

Even two more questions if that's all right

My current chisel, that I showed in the picture, is diamond shaped and toothed. Is this common? It's near impossible to get it out of the leather, after punching.

I am thinking of buying a set of three chisels of this kind, on your recommendations, is this any good? Can this be considered a decent one?

Get you 1 of these stitch aid remover plates. Or make 1. They make getting you punch out soo much easier. Makes a stitching job a lot more enjoyable.

[toxo]

2 hours ago, Dannyman said:

Even two more questions if that's all right

My current chisel, that I showed in the picture, is diamond shaped and toothed. Is this common? It's near impossible to get it out of the leather, after punching.

I am thinking of buying a set of three chisels of this kind, on your recommendations, is this any good? Can this be considered a decent one?

Firstly you need to sharpen and polish your chisels just like any other cutting implement. Then run some wax along the stitch line. Then every now and then stab some wax with your chisel, even a bar of soap will do the job. You won't have any more trouble getting it out.

[Dannyman]

Wow, good tips. Thanks guys. Sharpening..., why didn't I think of that?! They must be quite blunt. Much like factory knifes usually are..

I would never have thought of applying wax to the work piece or punch tool. Wonderful

I was actually wondering if those remover plates were advisable, but I'm going to try now. Will make a wooden one. Especially after investing the time to sharpen my chisels

Edited March 24 by Dannyman

[toxo]

37 minutes ago, Dannyman said:

I was actually wondering if those remover plates were advisable, but I'm going to try now. Will make a wooden one. Especially after investing the time to sharpen my chisels

No need ! Just get in a position where you tap the chisel and immediately put the hammer/mallet on the leather. It's enough to pull the chisel out and much quicker than those plate things. Mauls are not so good in this respect, they don't get as close as a mallet.

[SUP]

If I find my chisels difficult to pull out of the leather,  I use a pan of wax as my punching board. I melt any old candles  that I have around the house (no fragrance - that will transfer to the leather) in a baking pan. Once cool, it becomes a great punching board. Each time the wax surface become rough due to punching, it is a simple matter to put the pan back into the oven at low temperature to melt the wax and smoothen the surface again.

This way, the chisel tips get waxed at each turn and slip out easily. If I find that the wax is transferring to the leather, I use an old piece of thinner split in between my leather and the wax. 

I anyway use thick splits as punching boards. Kinder on the chisels.

 

Edited March 24 by SUP

[ljk]

I have limited need to hand stitch, however I'm a amateur shoemaker and I inseam my insoles and and saddle stitch my outsoles. I have noticed many Euro and Oriental leather workers use a grooved awl. If you google rasche awls you will find a awl that handstitchers might like.  You insert the awl, leave in position while passing both thread thru the groove.

[whistleshortbritches]

On 3/21/2024 at 2:43 PM, Dannyman said:

Thanks DieselTech, I ordered them. The saddle stitch shouldn't be the hardest part in leatherworking, I reckon. It will probably go smooth now

You will be on your way. 

If you are normal, you will be looking at sewing machines before you finish that first project.

It is okay, though. Thread and needle size will still be a something we have to learn, then their is that blasted oiling and dying stuff, what dang leather do I need. Carving or Geometrics, Man this leather stuff, it is going to take me a lifetime and I am in my stinking 60's already. Sorry I had to ramble a little.

Stitching is rewarding, just takes time they say. I once stitched a belt by pulling every stitch with a pair of pliers. My iron holes were a bit small for the needles, I picked to large of thread, it was double thickness, Herman Oak on outside, a piece of pigskin for a liner. The pigskin was to soft to keep a decent hole after it was punched. I stitched on it about an hour thinking it might get easier. Had to much stitched to back up and do something different. By the time I got that thing stitched, I created a hole punch with a tiny screwdriver to help widen the stitch hole, bought a new set of Irons, some smaller diameter thread, and smaller stitching needles for future projects. Stitching has become easier, have purchased yet another set of irons for less stitches per inch. I never mastered the putting both needles thru like all the YouTube videos demonstrate. Victor George a Youtuber and Master Craftsman does not stitch that way. He uses the One thread thru at a time deal. He has excellent videos for learning about making projects start to finish. 

https://www.youtube.com/@viktorgeorge9144

other Youtubers I found very helpful for learning, Don Gonzales Saddle Maker, Joe Meling, and Makers Leather

Another thing I have learned is you will come up with your own process which will be a combination of advice from others and your experience in the process.

I know this information does not help in the least with your stitching, but I hope it gives you some encouragement, and helps you to enjoy the process.

I am Still dreaming of that Cobra Class 4.  I need a few more Dollars and I might be able to get it. I am having trouble convincing my wife that it will look fine in the Living room, until I get that spot fixed in the shop outside to hold all the leather stuff I am accumulating.

 

[jrdunn]

5 hours ago, whistleshortbritches said:

I am Still dreaming of that Cobra Class 4.  I need a few more Dollars and I might be able to get it. I am having trouble convincing my wife that it will look fine in the Living room, until I get that spot fixed in the shop outside to hold all the leather stuff I am accumulating.

Get a Cowboy 4500 instead.  They look great in the dining room!

[whistleshortbritches]

10 minutes ago, jrdunn said:

Get a Cowboy 4500 instead.  They look great in the dining room!

Awesome

[CdK]

When I started with the craft I had spare time and broke, still in school. A cobbler in our small town set me up with an old diamond awl, some needles & thread and a piece of beeswax. He showed me how to use these. I used a modified kitchen fork as my pricking iron and a stitching pony I made from oak lumber scraps. Useful learning how to stitch using these simple basic tools and making what you need from the (old) gentleman. (He was a teenager during WW2 and learnt through necessity to do leather work making prosthetics, these were in great demand at the time.)

[chuck123wapati]

wiggle your needles in the hole up and down side to side,  this will stretch the holes or awl cuts enough to easily pull thru. then they will close back up tight like they are supposed to be. Two needles or one doesnt matter.