Could the Artisan Toro 3200 be the one machine to do it all?

[garethkerlin]

Long time member, first time poster! Thanks for all the posts and knowledge that you guys have!

I have been looking at buying my first industrial cylinder arm walking foot machine. The used market is scarce on the East coast so I've been looking at new machines though I find myself in the same place so many are. I want to do thicker foods like work belts, holsters etc. but I also really want to work in waxed canvas goods. 

I looked at the class 26 (or equivalent) which is good for light/medium that maxed out at 1/2" and the class 4 which is great for heavier work but struggles with lighter work... I can only afford one... Well maybe I can't even afford one but I'm gonna try haha. 

Found the newer Artisan Toro 3200. Says it can do light work "2-3 pieces of paper" to 9/10 of an inch. I know each would require setup and tension adjustments which is normal but does anyone have any experience with this machine? Can it run the gamut it says it can? Can it perform well in both scenarios? If so, then I think it might be the one for me. Any thoughts appreciated! 

TORO3200LineBrochure09302014.pdf

[bruce johnson]

If you want a straight up comparison of the Toro vs 26, call Leather Machine Co. Dave and Vince at Leather Machine Co both used to work for Artisan. I have no experience with the latest owners at Artisan  but have a long running relationship with Steve and now Dave and Vince that all worked at Artisan before they started Leather Machine CO.  

[kgg]

3 hours ago, garethkerlin said:

Any thoughts

My thoughts are the Artisan Toro 3200 is a class 441 machine with a chopped down cylinder arm as the original Juki TSC-441 machines have a 16" cylinder arm. When I was looking for a Class 441 clone machine, couldn't justify a true Juki TSC-441, I drove myself nuts looking at the specs of a lot of machines. I finally just went with a standard Juki 16" clone using standard readily available parts that can be had from a lot of suppliers and figured it would be a lot easier to sell down the road.

That said if the price was right and it was in great shape it maybe worth a consideration.

What are they asking for the machine????

kgg

[Patrick1]

http://www.artisansew.com/pdf/specs/TORO_3200.pdf If this is the machine your looking at, it's a 441 clone with a 7/8 thickness capacity. It's same as the Cobra class 3, or the Cowboy CB 3500, not the Cowboy 3200 which is not a 441 clone because the all the parts are not compatible. You're better off with the Toro 3200 because you can upgrade the machine with the narrow feed dogs and plates to sew thinner material. Just the best versatile machine out there in my opinion.

[nylonRigging]

19 hours ago, garethkerlin said:

Found the newer Artisan Toro 3200. Says ..."it can do light work "2-3 pieces of paper". to 9/10 of an inch. I know each would require setup and tension adjustments which is normal but does anyone have any experience with this machine? Can it run the gamut it says it can? Can it perform well in both scenarios? If so, then I think it might be the one for me. Any thoughts appreciated! 

I use one all the time. It can be easy dumbed down to sew 138 size nylon thread, but that is about as light as I have taken mine for thread size. The artisan model you quoting I bought and setup 95%+ of the time for just seam-binding using 138 on thicker edges to bind using 1" type2 heavy nylon tape, and it does really good with lighter #138 for that large shuttle system and machine. I am under-working that 3200 machines stroke and power,. but I always like to ask sew machines to do less than the suggested factory Maximum load.

I basically never tried to sew thinner items with the Artisan 3200 because I have a lot of other machines to sew thinner materials that are setup and tuned for that job . it sewing..." light work "2-3 pieces of paper".  I seriously doubt that. you can try ?, but I don't think the machine would do that thin unless you really changed out a plethora of things, Dog, small hole Needle plate, Feet, choices of 794 needle size, and really work playing with tensions ..etc. .. ( imho )  you don't buy that machine to sew thinnest of material. That's not what the machine was design to do. there so many other lighter and cheaper-$ machines already do that job well .

.

Edited Thursday at 08:40 PM by nylonRigging

[dikman]

If, as others have said, it's a 441 clone (and in the brochure it certainly looks like one) then you will NOT be sewing 2-3 pieces of paper - unless it's bloody thick paper!! If you fit the modified needle plate/feed dog combo then you will be able to sew fairly thin leathers comfortably with #138 thread and if you can find suitable needles possibly #69 thread. While it is not a do-everything machine the modified fittings do make it pretty versatile.

[Cumberland Highpower]

I think your 3200 would "probably" be a more user friendly machine than the full on 441 clones as a do everything machine.

The longer arm on the full length machines is more useful, there is no doubt, but there is something to say for ergonomics....The longer the arm, the further you have to reach for the handwheel.

I don't have any 441 clones on hand, but I have owned a few similar class machines (Adlers) and I prefer the standard versions over the 16" jobs for that reason.  I'm fairly tall, with long arms but that little extra reach you have to do on the 16" machines adds up in a day's time.

(That's part of why I like the old Randall Stitchers and still keep them, I can sit, do some quality work on small goods and keep my arms and elbows at the same level at a comfortable spacing).

If you can get by without the 16" arm,  go for your 3200.  I have run 69 thread on a 205-64 in the past and had no issues,  I don't see why a Juki clone would be any different?  You could sew all day on a bobbin! 

 

Edited Friday at 12:15 AM by Cumberland Highpower

[1hp]

this craft, 2 machine minimum.

[Gump]

I have had my Toro 3200 about 10 yrs, and it is a 12 inch version of 441, 90% same parts. Does the same job as all other 441 clones. No machine can properly sew something thinner than the diameter of the thread you are using. I have used 92 nylon, but needles that thin are trouble when there that long. So no on sewing paper properly.  No major problems, just a little hook adjustment after about 50 hours break-in. Came properly set up and still works fine.

[garethkerlin]

Thanks for the responses! If I go new, it looks like this is the one that I'll end up with. Seems like it's the best of both worlds. 

[garethkerlin]

On 1/2/2025 at 8:25 PM, 1hp said:

this craft, 2 machine minimum.

At this point I'm a two hand minimum haha. Hand sewing has been really rewarding and to be honest I prefer the look and construction of a saddle stitch but I just want to produce more. Just can't shell out 7 grand at the start.lol. 

[garethkerlin]

On 1/2/2025 at 7:12 PM, Cumberland Highpower said:

(That's part of why I like the old Randall Stitchers and still keep them, I can sit, do some quality work on small goods and keep my arms and elbows at the same level at a comfortable spacing).

I have an opportunity to buy one of those for a good deal. I love the stitch that they make (and it's a dream of mine to own one) though I believe they are probably even more limited than a 441 clone haha. I can't imagine a flatbed attachment for one haha. 

[garethkerlin]

On 1/2/2025 at 5:07 PM, dikman said:

If, as others have said, it's a 441 clone (and in the brochure it certainly looks like one) then you will NOT be sewing 2-3 pieces of paper - unless it's bloody thick paper!!

When I see something like that on a brochure I really have to question the reality of it. Is it just a sales pitch to sell machines even though it will be a huge pain in the butt... Haha

[garethkerlin]

On 1/2/2025 at 3:40 PM, nylonRigging said:

it sewing..." light work "2-3 pieces of paper".  I seriously doubt that. you can try ?, but I don't think the machine would do that thin unless you really changed out a plethora of things, Dog, small hole Needle plate, Feet, choices of 794 needle size, and really work playing with tensions ..etc. .. ( imho )  you don't buy that machine to sew thinnest of material. That's not what the machine was design to do. there so many other lighter and cheaper-$ machines already do that job well .

.

I know I could replace the parts etc but I don't have a lot of experience with tensions. Definitely don't wanna throw myself in the deep in and get super frustrated. The "2-3 pieces of paper" on the brochure sounds a like a sales pitch to me haha

[garethkerlin]

On 1/2/2025 at 6:16 AM, Patrick1 said:

http://www.artisansew.com/pdf/specs/TORO_3200.pdf If this is the machine your looking at, it's a 441 clone with a 7/8 thickness capacity. It's same as the Cobra class 3, or the Cowboy CB 3500, not the Cowboy 3200 which is not a 441 clone because the all the parts are not compatible. You're better off with the Toro 3200 because you can upgrade the machine with the narrow feed dogs and plates to sew thinner material. Just the best versatile machine out there in my opinion.

If the Artisan Toro 3200 is a 441 clone, does it have the same capacity as the class 4, 4500 etc? The only difference being the shorter cylinder arm? The class 3 has a 9" and the class 4 is 16" and this one is 12". If so, that's a nice middle of the road!

[garethkerlin]

On 1/2/2025 at 12:03 AM, kgg said:

I finally just went with a standard Juki 16" clone using standard readily available parts that can be had from a lot of suppliers and figured it would be a lot easier to sell down the road.

That said if the price was right and it was in great shape it maybe worth a consideration.

What are they asking for the machine????

Which brand did you end up going with? I'm stuck in the same research loop trying to make the best choice. I know some of the less reputable clones are really good for a fraction of the price but is hard to know which ones you can trust...

Artisan is selling the base model toro3200 with the u table without shipping for $2,600. Sounds like a pretty good deal though freight might be crazy.

Can't find many good used machines local to me in VA....

[kgg]

1 hour ago, garethkerlin said:

Which brand did you end up going with? I'm stuck in the same research loop trying to make the best choice. I know some of the less reputable clones are really good for a fraction of the price but is hard to know which ones you can trust...

Since I'm in Ontario, Canada I went with KOBE which was considerably cheaper then what a Cobra, Cowboy or even a Techsew would have cost. 

[Cumberland Highpower]

7 hours ago, garethkerlin said:

I have an opportunity to buy one of those for a good deal. I love the stitch that they make (and it's a dream of mine to own one) though I believe they are probably even more limited than a 441 clone haha. I can't imagine a flatbed attachment for one haha. 

You could make one for it (I think Randall-Campbell has one).  It's all on one side of the machine.  More "limited" than a 441? In general yes.

They're primarily for Leather.  I've sewn everything from real heavy skirting down to 2/3oz leather in wallets, PVC, Closed cell foam, rubber and even plastic.

Randalls wont handle woven materials, the hook/needle will snag and either tear the fabric or break.  I have sewn beta biothane on them, but had to modify things a little.

They do make a beautiful stitch and are easy to use. But, if you want to do any nylon work or binding, they're entirely unsuitable.

In leather they're a more capable machine than a 441 clone.  You can do much finer work, much closer to edges, right up against molded work, and with larger thread than usual with better results.  I once made a batch of mens wallets comprised of 2/3 and 3/4oz leather and stitched them entirely with 277 nylon.   They came out looking fantastic.  Try that on a 441! LOL.

Hook and awl harness machines are really dinosaurs, but I like them.  Nobody in the US has made a new one since before WW2 and they just keep rebuilding old ones over and over.

Things have changed allot in industry over the past 70 years and I think the limited demand for these machines will fade away sooner than you think.  Modern stitchers like the 441 are easier to train operators on, cheaper to buy, easier to maintain and more versatile.  Stitch quality is inferior on leather, but it's close enough.  In this gilded age of "Made in China" nobody remembers high quality work (or cares) and good enough is literally good enough!   My point here (I rambled a bit)  is if you want  a Randall better get it now while parts/hooks/awls are available.  The Randalls were all made over a century ago and I don't think they made that many in total. Not all survive today.  4 are sitting in my shop! lol.

I doubt Randall-Campbell will make parts and service these machines 10-20 years from now even if they tell you today they will.

Edited 6 hours ago by Cumberland Highpower