How is this stitching possible on a stitcher?

[yober]

I’ve come across a couple examples of this technique, and I’m trying to get my mind around what exactly the order of operations was. Usually the loop is sewn first and then the edge containing the welt is sewn afterwards on a standard juki-type stitcher.  However, in the included pictures it seems that the highlighted stitch line is soon before the loop is stitched in. How is this possible — handstitching? There’s obviously no room to get that stitch tucked underneath the overhanging loop. Apparently somebody has this licked. Something I missed? Would love to know the answer to this. Thanks.

 

[Cumberland Highpower]

18 minutes ago, yober said:

I’ve come across a couple examples of this technique, and I’m trying to get my mind around what exactly the order of operations was. Usually the loop is sewn first and then the edge containing the welt is sewn afterwards on a standard juki-type stitcher.  However, in the included pictures it seems that the highlighted stitch line is soon before the loop is stitched in. How is this possible — handstitching? There’s obviously no room to get that stitch tucked underneath the overhanging loop. Apparently somebody has this licked. Something I missed? Would love to know the answer to this. Thanks.

 

Well, I can't tell you from looking at the photo how it's assembled all the way, I can tell you it was Stitched on a Randall with a slim and narrow presser foot.. (Hook and awl machine).  No Juki can make such fine work.

Milt Sparks uses Randalls.

Edited Monday at 12:24 AM by Cumberland Highpower

[yober]

Thanks.  Yeah, that is some nice stitch work, but the awl coming from the top on a Randall still can’t clear the foldover and go underneath it.  Unless somehow the welted edge is sewn first and then somehow the loop is folded over and sewn from inside the holster.

Edited Monday at 03:06 AM by yober

[Cumberland Highpower]

There's a trick to it to be sure, but if they can do it so can you.

Pull up on the bottom of the loop a little.  My guess is they ran stitching from about the trigger area up the flap and around part way. Then folded over the loop and stitched it to the back.  I cant' tell if the X came first or the stitch band around it. Pull it up a bit and see.  Looks like the X came after judging from the way the thread is cut.

They just then folded the holster from the look of it and closed it up.  Looks like in a 2nd set of stitching (I can see a stop and start on the backside of the closing stitch. Might give them the chance to flip it over and finish stitching from the front?

I'd guess they just thumbed the loop back real hard and ran a narrow foot past it at that point.  I think I can see some wrinkles from the flex still present?

At the same time I think the stitch length in that tight spot varies allot, it may be a short stretch of hand stitching, an inch or 2?.  It could also just be the sign of a serious fight trying to wrestle the holster around/past the presser foot?   I can't see those guys doing any hand work though.

Anway my best guess from the 2 photos.  It's just a guess.  I've stitched allot of holsters over the past 25 years....

You should take a flat shoe knife and cut the entire thing apart. You'll get a good look at the stitching that way.

 

 

Edited Monday at 03:29 AM by Cumberland Highpower

[yober]

These pics happen to be from online sources; some of the “ears” on versions I’ve held in person are much wider than this, so I don’t think they get pulled back. One doesn’t take apart their $400+ milt sparks holster. :-)

The different stitching is because on the upper portion of the edge is a full welt, whereas there’s a movable welt in the lower half so the stitching really only goes through the front (and back on the back half), leaving the movable portion of the welt to move in and out to adjust tension.

The only solution I can think of is handstitching. I’m willing to be educated though.…. 8^)

[Dwight]

I'd like to see the full pictures of the holster . . . not sure of all I'm seeing with the chopped up pieces.

May God bless,

Dwight

[yober]

2 hours ago, Dwight said:

I'd like to see the full pictures of the holster . . . not sure of all I'm seeing with the chopped up pieces.

May God bless,

Dwight

 

[Cumberland Highpower]

7 hours ago, yober said:

 One doesn’t take apart their $400+ milt sparks holster. :-)

 

Why not? You can always put it back together.   I'd consider $400  a reasonable tuition if you want to learn to make these types of holsters.

I've probably got 2 bushels of parts from holsters I've cut apart/deconstructed over the years! LOL

[badhatter1005]

It looks like someone punched holes with a precision chisel set the holes with an awl and then saddle stitched that particular portion by hand.  I know a lot of pro shops do that however I'm by no means an expert.

[Double Daddy]

14 hours ago, Cumberland Highpower said:

Well, I can't tell you from looking at the photo how it's assembled all the way, I can tell you it was Stitched on a Randall with a slim and narrow presser foot.. (Hook and awl machine).  No Juki can make such fine work.

Milt Sparks uses Randalls.

The Union Lockstitch machine is also a needle-awl machine...been trying to get my hands on one of those in my locale for a while. No crazy big hurry...but...they sure lay a purdy stitch line. In the meantime, I'll chug along just fine with my CB3200...

Same goes for whatever old model Landis machine Sam Andrews uses for his fine leather products...check out his excellent instructional videos on YouTube. I believe he even found one of those antiques to keep around for backup purposes.

Edited Monday at 02:48 PM by Double Daddy

[Cumberland Highpower]

1 hour ago, Double Daddy said:

The Union Lockstitch machine is also a needle-awl machine...been trying to get my hands on one of those in my locale for a while. No crazy big hurry...but...they sure lay a purdy stitch line. In the meantime, I'll chug along just fine with my CB3200...

Same goes for whatever old model Landis machine Sam Andrews uses for his fine leather products...check out his excellent instructional videos on YouTube. I believe he even found one of those antiques to keep around for backup purposes.

I've got a couple UL machines and a spare for parts.  They're getting allot easier to get ahold of with the onslaught of cheap Chinese machines.  You'll get one sooner or later.

I paid $800 for my first one at auction 20 years ago, the 2nd afew years back, $250.  My parts machine was $30! LOL.  First thing I stole was the motor/table/variable drive from it.  The UL is a great machine for belts/harness/strap goods.  Not all that great for holsters, but does work decently if you're experienced. Thing about the UL is that it has to be a real tight machine or you're have endless problems with it....

I remember talking once to a holster maker at Milt Sparks. If I remember right he said they had 7 Randall/Campbells operating.  That was some time back though, they could be up or down.  I know DeSantis operates some as well, at least 2.I actually sold a Randall to Gene Desantis on the cheap. I say 2 at least, because he shipped me a Randall Crate to ship the one I sold him....

You must be mentioning the Landis 16.  That's a good machine for holster making and I have a real nice one but almost never use it.  The Randalls are a little better for holster work, I really prefer the awl feed for holsters, but that's splitting hairs.

[yober]

2 hours ago, badhatter1005 said:

It looks like someone punched holes with a precision chisel set the holes with an awl and then saddle stitched that particular portion by hand.  I know a lot of pro shops do that however I'm by no means an expert.

That is probably how I’ll do it for an upcoming sheath (similar design).  I see so many of these with this folded-over design, I was wondering how anyone accomplished this in volume.  Seems like you’d need a curved needle at minimum.

[Samalan]

That stitching is done while the holster is flat before you mold it, and the stitching on the one in the picture is not done very well anyway; it's stitched flat and then molded.

[yober]

2 hours ago, Samalan said:

That stitching is done while the holster is flat before you mold it, and the stitching on the one in the picture is not done very well anyway; it's stitched flat and then molded.

Um, no.  If the loop is stitched first, the stitching machine is prevented from stitching the edge seam as the flap now covers the stitchline.  If the edge seam is stitched first, the holster is now folded and the loop cannot be sewn through the single thickness.

Milt Sparks holsters are some of the most exclusive and desired holsters in the world.  An 18 month wait is not uncommon.

[AlZilla]

2 hours ago, yober said:

Sparks holsters are some of the most exclusive and desired holsters in the world

The stitching conundrum is interesting but at the end of the day, it's just a piece of leather and many members here could duplicate it.  Another respected gun leather maker has often opined that current wait times are only because manufacturers aren't willing to expand and fill orders in a timely manner. No offense intended to Sparks or anyone else. It's still just leather, thread and dye.

I'd agree with the other poster that the stitching is inconsistent on the subject holster.

I'd like to have it in hand to figure it out.

EDIT: I think most of the stitching is done and then the last bit, from about 6 stitches above the tension screw, up and a few stitches around the corner, are finished by hand.

Edited Monday at 11:05 PM by AlZilla

[yober]

I think the holster pictured is a very early one and it was a custom-made one-off for a specific competitor, which would probably explain it’s relative state.

Still, I’d be very interested in how the stitching and order of operations were done in this example as there are many other like applications.

I am contemplating using an Awl for All.

[Samalan]

Two I made no conundrum well not really

[Samalan]

the one on top is without finish

[AlZilla]

21 minutes ago, Samalan said:

the one on top is without finish

And does the flap lay over the welt stitch?

[yober]

49 minutes ago, Samalan said:

Two I made no conundrum well not really

I’m not sure what this illustrates.

[Cumberland Highpower]

23 hours ago, yober said:

 

Milt Sparks holsters are some of the most exclusive and desired holsters in the world.  An 18 month wait is not uncommon.

They're good holsters, I've owned a couple and they usually just came with the gun.  (I cheat, I've been a FFL/Dealer for 15 years).

Too bad they have such a lead time.  That cuts about 80% of the customer base out, as most gun owners have ADHD....

[chuck123wapati]

the two parts inner and outer are sewn together along with the decoration the loop is then sewn the hoster folded and the welt sewn in by hand. only about two inches of hand sewing would take just a few minutes. looks like velcro sewn into the loop. 

[yober]

1 hour ago, chuck123wapati said:

the two parts inner and outer are sewn together along with the decoration the loop is then sewn the hoster folded and the welt sewn in by hand. only about two inches of hand sewing would take just a few minutes. looks like velcro sewn into the loop. 

How do you propose pushing the needle through the backside without punching the inner side of the fold over?  That welt is too think for a curved needle.

[AlZilla]

36 minutes ago, yober said:

How do you propose pushing the needle through the backside without punching the inner side of the fold over?  That welt is too think for a curved needle.

The fold over will push out of the way. That last bit is certainly stitched by hand. Look at the stitches - you can see evidence at the very top on the front view. Also whatever is going on about 5 stitches above the screw on the back view. No question in my mind.

[yober]

36 minutes ago, AlZilla said:

The fold over will push out of the way. That last bit is certainly stitched by hand. Look at the stitches - you can see evidence at the very top on the front view. Also whatever is going on about 5 stitches above the screw on the back view. No question in my mind.

Agreed.  I think I may try the stitching awl in my application “for research purposes.”