Sewing Machine Decision?

[elboze]

Hi all!!! I'm new to this forum and have read much of the content pertaining to sewing machines. Could someone who makes thier daily living or has enough experience please tell us newbies when it come to dealing with these leather machines how to cut through the bs all the dealers want to tell you???

Example: I have spoken to several dealers who all have a different opinon about what their machine will sew and what others will not. I need a walking foot machine for sewing tack and have recently sold my Tippmann and Juki DDL in hopes of buying a good electric sewing machine. However one dealer will tell me, oh ya you will be able to sew chaps and switch your thread and needle out and sew harness, and another dealer says bs, you need 2 different machines, 1 to sew your tack and another to sew chaps.

Could someone please, for the love of god, tell us what is the black and white truth. Can lighter weight material be sewn on these heavy machines and still be quality stitching????

Also any opinons on what machines to stay away from????

Thanks

Lee

[KAYAK45]

Hi and welcome!

I cannot do Jack Nichalson, But...You want the truth..You can't Handle the truth!!!

Listen here and obey, cobra steve, toledo bob, wiz have no axe to grind.

They speak with straight tongue cimosoby! Buy what they say!!!

[elboze]

Son, we live in a world that has walls. And those walls have to be ... Great movie

Yes I have read what Wiz has to offer seems to be pretty knowledgeable. Hopefully he will add his 2 cents.

Thanks Kayak

[Wizcrafts]

I sew on a Cobra Class 4 and an Adler 30-70, at work, in a pro leather shop. The Adler maxes out with #138 thread, sewn into maybe 3/8" thickness, taped together tightly. Otherwise, 5/16 inch loosely packed. It does a great job with #69 thread sewing leather vests, jackets, chaps, purses and even harder jobs, like belts and rifle slings. The thinner thread goes a lot farther in the relatively small "large" bobbin in this machine.

The Cobra is normally used with #138 to #277 thread and a #22 or #24 needle and can sew over 3/4 inch. However, with a simple change of the bobbin spool and smaller needle (and less top thread tension), I use it to sew cuffs and zippers on leather jackets and chaps, using #69 thread.

The action on the big stitchers is compound triple feed. As long as the feed dog is active, you have synchronized top and bottom feed, just like any walking foot machine. By tossing on the table top attachment you can sew chaps, jackets, belts, whatever, without it draping over the cylinder arm.

Ideally, if you have a lot of steady business in both garment and heavy leather sewing, you'll want separate machines, each set-up for the type of job it is meant to do. That means a light duty walking foot machine for light thread and thinner leather, denim and vinyl, and a big heavy duty machine for thick straps, holsters, saddlery, using thick thread.

I have learned that it is easier to dumb down a big stitcher, to do light work, than it is to smart up a lesser machine for heavier work than it is designed to do.

[Art]

Hi Lee,

You don't neeeeeeeeed two machines. The bigger machine like a 441 clone will sew 2-4oz with 69 thread as readily as 45oz using 346, just change needle, thread, and tension.

However, it is easier to switch back and forth with two machines, or three, or four.

Art

Hi all!!! I'm new to this forum and have read much of the content pertaining to sewing machines. Could someone who makes thier daily living or has enough experience please tell us newbies when it come to dealing with these leather machines how to cut through the bs all the dealers want to tell you???

Example: I have spoken to several dealers who all have a different opinon about what their machine will sew and what others will not. I need a walking foot machine for sewing tack and have recently sold my Tippmann and Juki DDL in hopes of buying a good electric sewing machine. However one dealer will tell me, oh ya you will be able to sew chaps and switch your thread and needle out and sew harness, and another dealer says bs, you need 2 different machines, 1 to sew your tack and another to sew chaps.

Could someone please, for the love of god, tell us what is the black and white truth. Can lighter weight material be sewn on these heavy machines and still be quality stitching????

Also any opinons on what machines to stay away from????

Thanks

Lee

[elboze]

Wiz & Art thanks for your replies!!!! That is what I needed to hear, someone who knows and not worried about making a sale. I have spoken with quite a few dealers and so far sure seems that Steve with Cobra will be getting my business. Very helpful and polite fellow. Only one to hand out his personal phone to boot!!!!

[Wizcrafts]

To expand on my prior reply; I at one time had over a dozen industrial sewing machines in my shop. Some were made as tailoring machines, others were designed for making upholstery or heavy denim garments. I had post machines for sewing hats and caps, patchers for patching and weird jobs sewn up the snout. But, most of my money making work was performed on four machines:

• Singer 29k something, with a small bobbin, for odd jobs
• Singer 153w102 walking foot cylinder arm machine
• Juki LU-563 for vests, skirts, jacket repairs, belts, Naugahyde, heavy cloth, etc.
• Union Lockstitch Machine for sewing up to 3/4 inch of leather, with #346 or larger thread.

Now, after getting rid of all of those machines and getting out of the business for 15 years, I am back into sewing and stamping leather. I have acquired and regularly use the following sewing machines:

• Singer 29k172 long arm big bobbin patcher, for patching and circular jobs requiring a cylinder arm.
• National 300N (obsolete) compound feed, large bobbin, walking foot machine, altered to sew up to 7/16 inch, with #138 thread.
• Union Lockstitch Machine, for thick jobs using #277 or #346 thread (or 4 or 6 cord waxed linen).

The only type of machine I intend to add is a cylinder arm walking foot, 441 clone machine. I can tell you it is going to be a Cowboy brand machine (it's on lay-away). This machine is built tough enough that I don't have to worry about out living it, as long as I keep it oiled. When I need tit to sew cuffs on leather jackets, or arm holes on vests, I will change the needle and thread, reduce the top tension and pressor foot pressure and put it to work. When a 3/4 inch job comes up I'll change back to a heavy needle and thread and increase the tensions again.

So, while you can use a 441 machine to do light work, it will require a lot of adjusting to get it right. Once you have the formula memorized, it's a piece of cake. If you can afford to purchase two machines, I would recommend one 441 clone and one walking foot flatbed machine. If only one, make it a 441 with a table top attachment and all needle sizes from 18 through 27. Get lots of bobbins and thread, two spools each size and color; one for the bobbin, one for the top.

[CowboyBob]

As Art says it can be done,but they don't make a leather point needles smaller than a #23,they do go down to a #18 needle you can use but it's a round point & might not look the best in certain leathers,also this needle is 2&3/4" long & when sewing with the #18 you have to be very careful because this needle can bend & break real easy(it's about the same size as the lead in a lead pencil)The smaller machines needles are 1/&3/4" & you can get a leather needle from #25-#14

I'm not trying to say it won't work I just like people to know that it won't work the best do to the needles.

Good Luck in your hunt.

Bob

[TwinOaks]

Adding to what the top guys are telling you:

You don't have to have multiple machines....but you'll WANT to. It's not about the machines' capabilities to penetrate leather, so much as it's about the machines' maximum thread sizes and the best match to the machines' designed functions. The big Cobra machines can certainly handle sewing small thin garment leather, but if it's set up for sewing harnesses, you'll have to change thread, needles, bobbin thread, tensions, and probably the speed to do garment work at anything resembling efficient. Likewise, you wouldn't expect singer 211 that's set up as a garment machine to perform well in the saddle skirt arena. That's why you'll want multiple machines- so you can set up the machine for an appropriate type of work and leave it there until needed.

Also, go ahead and plan on getting a patching machine.....if you're gonna run a leather shop, you'll want it.

[CowboyBob]

You don't have to have multiple machines....but you'll WANT to. It's not about the machines' capabilities to penetrate leather, so much as it's about the machines' maximum thread sizes and the best match to the machines' designed functions.

Very Well Said!

Heck you can pickup a small 31-15 Singer for a few $$ & do alot of chaps or anything else with #69 or 92

Bob

[Wizcrafts]

I remember when I went in search of my first sewing machine. I was doing leathercraft for about one year, or less. I decided that I wanted to make a leather stage vest, with pockets and conchos. I bought the leather from Tandy when it went on sale, along with a vest pattern pack. Then I set out on a quest for a proper sewing machine to assemble this seeming simple project.

What followed was a true adventure down sewing machine lane! The first machine I bought was a slant needle Singer home machine. It was very good at breaking needles; that's all. I returned it a day later and got a refund. The dealer told me I needed an industrial sewing machine and gave me a phone number of a sewing machine shop he knew. I called and they told me they had just what I needed and it would only cost me $400, plus tax. I went there and came home with a Singer 96K40, with a motor and table. I had never seen such a big machine since I worked in my Dad's tailor shop, many years before.

I quickly discovered to my chagrin, that as solid as that machine was it wasn't going to sew my vest together. The leather tended to stitck to the pressor foot and drag, causing tiny stitches in many places, and skipped stitches in other places. I called the dealer again and told him what was happening. He told me that I needed a "walking foot machine." I went there and came home with a Singer 31-19 head, and a pair of table clamps in the holes on the back. This machine did get the vest sewn.

Since I had such great luck sewing the vest with the 31-19, I tried sewing a 8 oz hand stamped and waxed leather belt. Big Mistake: the stitch length varied all along the perimeter! I called the dealer and told him about the stitches varying in length and he told me that I really needed a real walking foot machine. Huh, said I? I soon learned that what I had was not a real walking foot machine, but was a snap foot machine, with a spring loaded outer foot that dragged back with the material, then snapped forward at the end of the stitch. It worked fine on heavy garment leather used to make a vest, but not so fine on a polished surface veg-tan belt.

The next year was spent acquiring and getting rid of various sewing machines, from both private and commercial sources. I finally got a Singer 111w155 and a Juki LU-563, both of which are true walking foot machines. Yes, they sewed belts, including double leather belts, but were limited to using #138 thread. I tried using #207, but it they had random trouble tensioning it. So, the quest continued, for a machine capable of sewing heavier thread into thicker leather.

When I bought a Singer 132K6 I thought my quest had ended, but I was wrong again. As big and impressive as that machine was it still slid over the top of polished stamped leather belts! The only way I got reliable consistent stitch length was to sew the projects before hand polishing them. Frustrating! It's only saving grace was the fact that it would sew with #346 thread. But, the varying stitch length caused serious visual problems.

I knew I needed a big machine to sew thick, or polished leather, with heavy thread, but had no idea what it might be. Chance solved my dilemma!

I have played music for a living since 1975 and this sewing stuff, a paying hobby, was happening in 1986. I happened to take a one week gig in a city in Canada, named Barrie. Good pay, nice enough room, decent food within walking distance. Also, Barrie was the home base of Tandy Leather Of Canada. I looked up the retail store at the headquarters and went to buy stuff. When I got there I saw that there was a huge warehouse behind the main showroom. I asked what they kept in there and the manager told me that in addition to kits, leather. lace, dyes and tools, all their machines lived there; machines used to punching (clickers) and sewing leather kits. So, I asked if I could have a quick tour. What followed changed my sewing life!

In the middle of the warehouse stood a sewing machine that was a tall I I was, and four times heavier! The name on the tag said "Union Lockstitch By Randall." In awe, I asked about what they made with this huge machine. The manager told me that they used to sew purses, carry bags, holster kit parts and harness straps with it. However, the fellow who knew how to work it had retired and nobody had any idea how it threaded, much less operated. I laughed and asked if they would consider selling it? He told me YES! I asked how much and he said $1500. I left a $100 deposit, then came back the next Monday, bought the machine, had their employees load it into my station wagon (disassembled off table) and drove it home!

I had the beast at home and threw a moving party to get it down to the basement, where my shop was. But, I had no idea how to work it. So, I called a friend who called a friend, that knew somebody who could probably help me. I called and spoke to Sam Freedman, owner of the famous Freedman Harness Company. He invited me over and handed me a photocopy of the manual for his Union Lockstitch machine. He took me to his machine. It was really old and dirty and hadn't been used in over 20 years. He had me clean it up and oil it, then thread it according to the manual he printed for me. Once I had it threaded he had me sew scrap leather with it, then a 6 foot long harness strap (free labor). Then he sold me all of his spare parts for the machine. These included 20 bobbins, all available pressor feet and throat plates, edge guides and hundreds of needles and awls, of all sizes ever made.

Once I understood how to thread and operate the Union Lockstitch Machine, I never looked back. I sewed all manner of heavy leather projects, including all kinds of pistol holsters, up to 3/4 inch thick, gun belts, weight belts, handcuff cases, briefcases, et al. Once set, the stitch length didn't vary, like it had done in the big Singer 132k6. It didn't care about thread sizes. Want to use #554? No problem! Wind some 554 onto a spare bobbin, thread the rest through the top path, change the needle to a #4 and the awl to a #5, clamp down and sew. If the next job was a 1/4" thick pancake holster, I changed to a #1.5 needle and #2 awl, changed the thread to #207, top and bottom and sewed it like butter.

I still kept a dozen other sewing machines, each of which was set-up do use a particular size needle and thread and do jobs best suited to their design. Alterations to hems, cuffs and arm holes were done on a cylinder arm Singer 153, using #69 or #92 thread, which it thrived upon. Garments were sewn on a Juki LU-563. Hats were sewn on roller foot post machines. Patches and zippers were installed on a Singer 29k Patcher. Cloth was sewn on the first machine I bought; the 96k40. For zig-zag work I bought a Pfaff zig-zag head. I just swapped out heads, in one table. Sometimes I had to move the knee lever a bit and maybe change the v-belt, but they all worked perfectly for the jobs they were designed to do.

So, in closing, you may be able to get a given machine to sew heavier or lighter than it was designed for, but it won't do so to perfection. As Bob Kovar mentioned, a 441 clone (Juki 441) can sew garment leather (I do this at work), but will be more likely to bend or break the overly long needles. The machine is designed to exert a lot of pressure to the thread, top and bottom, and to the pressor feet. The slot in the throat plate is huge, compared to a traditional walking foot machine. Soft or narrow leather may drop into the slot and hang a bit, before the equally huge feed dog pushes it up and moves it back. There are other machines that are better suited to thin and narrow work, which doesn't require thick thread. A leather shop really does need more than one machine. The types you need depend on the nature of the leather and how thick or thin it will be.

It is a fact that a Cowboy CB-227R can be set-up to sew almost 1/2 inch of leather, albeit with #138 thread tops. This is a good medium duty cylinder arm machine, which takes needles that are available in a multitude of sizes and point styles.The Singer 31 class that Bob mentioned and I had once, is great for sewing vests, garments and other flat work. It mounts into a 20" x 48" table and is usually equipped with a half horsepower motor.

Edited June 11, 2011 by Wizcrafts

[$$hobby]

heres my .02

i do my leatherwork as an expensive hobbie.

but ive bought/sold many machines and have probably paid for my current one several times.

this is what ive leared, but YMMV.

Buy as big/large a machine as you can afford. especially when it comes to what you are going to try to run under the foot. if you get one that can handle 1/2 inch of material, you will eventually find out you need 5/8". you wont now, but there WILL be a time.

if you dont know the ins/outs of a sewing machine and are just a "user" then find someone that can hold your hands and talk you thru it while youre TS/fixing the issue.

also, last hint.

you know what you want to make/sew, so bring the material w/you and do some demos on the material with the correct thread/needle setup. if its 1 layer, bring it and sew it. If its 5 layers 1/2" thick, then bring it and test sew it. You will find out real fast if the machine can handle it or not.

[KAYAK45]

Well Elboze, that just about does it on advice. You are now up to your Eyeballs with info.

I'll add my last thought to you.

I got real lucky, no..I listened to these good chaps.

First I got a great singer 31-15 and started to learn to sew. $75. for the head, $50 for a table w/motor and light and then added a Servpro motor. Value...Priceless. Love that little Singer.

It wasn't big enough for belts.

Next a great, great 111w155. Paid $250 complete and after a hard cleaning and oiling. Perfect walking foot machine.

It wasn't big enough for holsters.

Soooo!!. Next was a cowboy 4500.

It's big enough for anything.

Wouldn't be without a single one of those machines.

Good luck, go slow, and enjoy the search.

Kevin

[LeatherLegion]

I started with a Boss about 7 years ago for heavy work from Ryan Neel. Drove all the way the to pick it up ...about 6-7 hours away...Bought a Tacsew T111-155 type for light work..not the best machine out there but it paied for itself so i am happy. Just bought a Cowboy 4500 few mothts ago and although i am very happy with the machine(outperforms the Boss) and very happy with the sevice(Bob Kovar) i will never sell my Boss or my light duty machine . I would probably replace the T111-155 copy with a better machine but never be without one like it. Having different mahines for different jobs is great..saves time and aggravation.

I do leather work as a hobby !

[elboze]

Thank you all. It's very nice to have the knowledge of all you wonderful folks when you need it. There is so much information here that is priceless!!!!! Thanks again everyone good luck to all.

Lee

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

I go around to farm field days, markets and shows every weekend selling my little and crank machines and at least two or three times a week I get asked if it is a 'saddlery machine'. Short answer "NO", however, I have sold several to saddlers, upholsterers, motor trimmers, leather workers and all manner of other sewers. Why? It is another tool in their arsenal for doing odd jobs.

As everyone has been saying, there is no one machine that will do everything. If the budget stretches to a 441 clone then you have a very versatile machine but if you are really serious you will undoubtedly finish up with three or four or more.

[intentio]

Been reading this forum for a while and I *think* I know what kind of machine I want although my purposes might be served better with 2 as previously mentioned in this thread. My intention isn't to hijack this thread and hopefully my question is inline with what's being discussed. I am looking to sew leather accessories using leather as thin as 2-3oz thick leather but primarily work on bags and belts of varying thickness (~ 6oz - 16oz). I would like to eventually move to leather garments but that won't be for quite some time. Should I be looking at a 441 clone with an optional flatbed attachment or would this be overkill? Also, which is a good 411 clone I should be looking at? Please keep in mind I would like to find locally available replacement parts so that's why I am considering a 441 clone. Thanks!

Edited June 23, 2011 by intentio

[TwinOaks]

Intentio:

The advice is always "get as much machine as you can, and try to get more machine than you think you'll need". What you're describing might be doable on a 618 type machine....but it has some limitations inherent to a flatbed. If you were to go to the next step and go with a 441 clone, you have the option of flat or cylinder- which means bag work gets easier. The 441 clones can handle most of the common threads you'd use, and still have the option to get a little thicker if you ever needed to.

Any of the top suppliers would be a good choice, but some may disparage the others....hey, it's business. Pretty much, try to use the supplier listed on this site because they are setting up an industrial machine head specifically to sew leather. Things like DC servo motors and speed reducers make all the difference between a nice line of stitches and sewing yourself to your work. Yes, you could probably order components, but unless you're a sewing machine mechanic, you'll likely have some headaches. Just rely on the experience of the top 3 until you get used to your machine.....then start tinkering. In alphabetical order....Artisan, Cobra, and Cowboy (sold through Toledo Industrial).....they all have good products and reputations to back them.

[Art]

Hi Intentio,

What Mike says, and parts are rarely needed for the 441's, but in the event, any sewing machine repair can order up what you need from a half dozen different parts suppliers. The distributors for the 441 clones will get you whatever parts you need too. At the speeds we run 441s for leatherwork, you seldom break things outright, and shuttle hooks and bobbins are standard fare from any of the distributors.

Art

Been reading this forum for a while and I *think* I know what kind of machine I want although my purposes might be served better with 2 as previously mentioned in this thread. My intention isn't to hijack this thread and hopefully my question is inline with what's being discussed. I am looking to sew leather accessories using leather as thin as 2-3oz thick leather but primarily work on bags and belts of varying thickness (~ 6oz - 16oz). I would like to eventually move to leather garments but that won't be for quite some time. Should I be looking at a 441 clone with an optional flatbed attachment or would this be overkill? Also, which is a good 411 clone I should be looking at? Please keep in mind I would like to find locally available replacement parts so that's why I am considering a 441 clone. Thanks!

[intentio]

Thanks for the replies guys, I think this is finally to slowly sink in

[Undeadzombiehunter]

As a new member and long time hand stitcher, my poor arthritis riddled finger joint have slowed me down, until I have not decided to buy some mechanical advantage.

I don't make a lot, being a hobbyist, so justifying the expense of many machines or high end machines means that compromise is the only answer. I have decided to buy a singer 132k6 mounted on a descent table with a new motor etc. Lightly used and fully serviced with 12 months warranty.

As I only stitch some sheaths, satchels, pouches and other light stuff I am sure the 132k6 will serve if......I could find a manual or some instructions for it. Yes I have the parts manual, but no users manual and will have to fork out $20 for one on ebay.

I have found the in this thread invaluable, thank you.

Tony

[Wizcrafts]

You'll get better results if you run one size smaller thread in the bobbin than on top, with that machine, if you go above size 207. If you limit the size of the top thread to #277, and use #207 in the bobbin, it shouldn't give you any trouble.

You will need leather point needles, in sizes 22, 23, 24 and 25. This covers a range of thread from 138 through 277.

Note, the feed system is not a real walking foot. It has a spring loaded top foot that simply follows the work backwards, until the feed dog drops. At that point, it snaps forward for the next stitch.

You should read this topic about the Singer 132k6 for a better understanding of its capabilities and limitations.

[CowboyBob]

Here's a manual http://parts.singerco.com/IPinstManuals/132B26.pdf

[Cobra Steve]

There is alot of good advice here. Please contact the dealers on this site, (they are all reputable), and listen to their advice and opinions, then make your decision. Thanks, Steve

[Undeadzombiehunter]

Thank you all so very much, your advice has always been practical and valued.

Bob, thank you for the link, greatly appreciated.

And Steve, your AU reseller made immediate contact with me, very helpful, you have a good local rep with him, and if the bug bites hard enough to warrant something more capable, I would be definitely be buying from Greg. I will get m money back on the 132k6 any day, so with 4 years to retirement who knows how full my workshop might get

Cheers, Tony