Needles And Threads

[Oldiesfan]

This is what i found on the internet . It also seems to be that a type IV and V are shoe threads . Type 1, 2 and III Machine threads. Look at the picture for info about a A.A. 52094A version .

Does that mean that a type V can't be used in my Singer 132K versions or 45k89 ?

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.amefird.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/8-30-11-A-A-52094A-Spun-Cotton-Shoes.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiehdSztMzwAhVj8-AKHQ2RAlkQFjAAegQIAxAC&usg=AOvVaw2Qz6Ypu8NOvHjUbAppoOqy

 

Edited May 15, 2021 by Oldiesfan

[jimi]

If you don´t use it you can always string together the ham or the turkey for christmas  €10 is a good price for that size of roll i think, those small Hoogen rolls are 20 each! ouch..then add postage...ouch again.

It looks straight enough to use in the machine??? i have used the linen 18/4 in my 45k and it worked well, with only one turn around the tension disk. I am sure you can stitch a bag together with that thread?? or a belt...if you groove it for laying the thread down because it might fray easier. It would probably absorb any oil or wax you apply to it?? Or try making sandals?? your 89 can do that?? That would probably bee the same thickness as 207-277 bonded nylon?

Edited May 15, 2021 by jimi

[Wizcrafts]

Regarding the "shoe thread," ask the seller to check the label to see which way it is twisted. Most single needle sewing machines with hooks spinning clockwise require left, or reverse, or Z twist thread. But, some shoe sole stitchers require right twist thread. If you use right twist in a standard sewing machine it may unravel as you sew.

Note, some twin needle machines may require right twist for the outside needle if that hook spins counterclockwise..

[Oldiesfan]

9 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

Regarding the "shoe thread," ask the seller to check the label to see which way it is twisted. Most single needle sewing machines with hooks spinning clockwise require left, or reverse, or Z twist thread. But, some shoe sole stitchers require right twist thread. If you use right twist in a standard sewing machine it may unravel as you sew.

Note, some twin needle machines may require right twist for the outside needle if that hook spins counterclockwise..

Look at what's mentioned in the printscreen . Z Twist .

One page back you see a picture of the label .

 

 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2021 by Oldiesfan

[Wizcrafts]

19 hours ago, Oldiesfan said:

Does that mean that a type V can't be used in my Singer 132K versions or 45k89 ?

Those threads are glazed, or mercerized, but not bonded. You will have a hard time using cotton or linen thread is a normal sewing machine. The shoe threads are usually waxed before you sew. In the case of a sole stitcher, the wax is in a pot that feeds to a barbed needle. This strengthens the fibers. If you run this thread through a standard sewing machine, without wax, it will probably break during the take-up cycle. At least that was my experience with Barbour's Irish Linen glazed thread when I last tried it.

[Oldiesfan]

1 hour ago, Wizcrafts said:

Those threads are glazed, or mercerized, but not bonded. You will have a hard time using cotton or linen thread is a normal sewing machine. The shoe threads are usually waxed before you sew. In the case of a sole stitcher, the wax is in a pot that feeds to a barbed needle. This strengthens the fibers. If you run this thread through a standard sewing machine, without wax, it will probably break during the take-up cycle. At least that was my experience with Barbour's Irish Linen glazed thread when I last tried it.

When this thread is ( maybe ) waxed , why should i wax it again . On my 45k89 is a huge waxe pot . So I this machine can handle waxed thread ... i think ! 

 

"Glaze or mercerised,  but not Bonded"  . What do you mean with bonded ? 

The machines i use for sewing are 132k6 ,132ksv18 and a 45k89 ( with waxe pot on top ) 

[Wizcrafts]

15 minutes ago, Oldiesfan said:

"Glaze or mercerised,  but not Bonded"  . What do you mean with bonded ? 

Most people who sew leather, vinyl and canvas use synthetic thread that has been coated in a polymer or resin that bonds the filaments together so they don't untwist as you sew. Some threads are more heavily bonded than others. But, any bonding is better than none. Glazed thread is smoothed out and the little cotton or linen fibers don't stick out. It is better  than just mercerized, but not as strong as synthetic bonded thread.

Here is a definition of Mercerized thread.

[Oldiesfan]

51 minutes ago, Wizcrafts said:

Most people who sew leather, vinyl and canvas use synthetic thread that has been coated in a polymer or resin that bonds the filaments together so they don't untwist as you sew. Some threads are more heavily bonded than others. But, any bonding is better than none. Glazed thread is smoothed out and the little cotton or linen fibers don't stick out. It is better  than just mercerized, but not as strong as synthetic bonded thread.

Here is a definition of Mercerized thread.

 

Thanks for explaining!

Tuesday the rolls of thread will arrive.  The Glazed Thread will arrive.  I'm very curious this time , curious about how it feels / looks and the strength.  And how large these rolls are .

[regius]

A lot of good discussion about thread here. I have a needle-specific question. I noticed the Juki DNU1541 and it s cousins and clones take the "135" system needles, so, regardless of the diameter of the blade (the NM number) and the size (after the /, like 135/17, size 17 needle), there is always a 135 somewhere on my needle packages, from Groz to Schemtz. Then the LU1508NH uses a longer needle, and has the number 190 on top of other numbers. 

What number designates the length of the needle?

 

also, on the Juki Lu1508 user manual, under "1508NH" column, they put "CROS-BECKER 190, NM125 TO NM 180". This only means their recommended needle right? I don't have to buy GROZ and don't really have to stitck to NM125, can be thinner than NM125?

[LindanHotAir]

The designation 135x17 is the needle system. The size is stated usually as 2 different numbers: 16, 18, we , etc which is a size that increases with shaft diameter, and a metric size which is in hundredths of a millimeter. For example, 110 is 1.1mm diameter. A 135x16 is the designation for leather needles that run in machines set up for 135x17, typically Singer 111 and the clones (certain models from Juki, Consew, Brother, Seiko , Mitsubishi, and others).

[kgg]

8 hours ago, regius said:

also, on the Juki Lu1508 user manual, under "1508NH" column, they put "CROS-BECKER 190, NM125 TO NM 180". This only means their recommended needle right? I don't have to buy GROZ and don't really have to stitck to NM125, can be thinner than NM125?

The needle specification for the Juki's needle size is the guaranteed rated needle size that will work for both top and bobbin thread size. Some people like one manufacturer of needles over another. My choice is the  SCHMETZ brand.

The nm 125 (#20) is for V92 thread in both the top and bobbin while the NM180 (#24) is for V138 thread in both the top and bobbin. Even through the NM180 (#24) can accept V207 thread. It appears Juki has allowed for going up one needle size to accommodate using V138 in thick, tough leather so to give the V138 thread enough head clearance at the hook. Some clone machines will say they can accept V207 but may not accept V207 in the bobbin which is something to check.

On the lower end the Juki probably will accept a needle slightly smaller but the head clearance at the hook will probably be to great and may not consistently pickup the top thread to form a stitch and end up with no or skipped stitches.

Since the Juki 1508 is made for thick heavy sewing to get it dumbed down for material that would normally require V46 or V69 thread maybe a bit off a challenge. If you are only needing to use V46 or V69 thread I would recommend you look at a Juki 1541S that has a rated thread usage of V46 to V138. With my 1541S it really doesn't like thin material and has to be dumbed down so I would imagine the 1508 would be the same or worse. If all you need is a walking foot the Juki 1181N rated at V46 to V92 maybe a option.I have used V138 top and bobbin with no problems in my Juki 1181N.

kgg

[Wizcrafts]

11 hours ago, regius said:

What number designates the length of the needle?

None. Each needle "system" is an agreed upon combination of numbers and letters that needle manufacturers stick to when they make needles for various sewing machines. So, a System 135x anything needle might be several different lengths. 135x5, 135x7, 135x9, 135x16 are all different needle geometries. The walking foot machines you are looking at use system 135x16 (leather point), 135x17 (round cloth point), or if specially modified, system 190 (Pfaff) needles. System 135x16 are about 1.75" long. System 190 are about 3/16" longer. The Juki LU-1508NH is modified to allow for the longer needle to cycle up and down without hitting the feet at the maximum rated height, while still being in time with the hook. This needle would hit the raised feet in a different machine that is not expecting the longer needles. This is never a good thing.

If one chooses to use a needle that is not meant for a specific machine, assuming the shank fits into the needle clamping black, the hook must be retimed to intersect above the needle's eye as it moves up from BDC. People do this on old antique sewing machines that were meant to use needle systems that are no longer produced. They often move the needle bar down so they can use a common needle system, line 135x16 or 135x17. This then requires checking and possibly adjusting the timing of the hook.

While there is little information to be gleaned from the needle system designation, the "size" is a known commodity. As was mentioned by a previous respondent, the metric sizes actually correspond to measured diameters. Thus, a number 18 needle which has the second size of 110 on the label has a diameter of 1.10mm. Unfortunately, the old Singer numbering system only corresponds to the relative diameters. Those numbers are standardized, so all #18 needles *should* be equal in diameter to any other manufacturer's #18 needle. Obviously, the metric sizes will match across manufactures as well.

You can get more fetching up about the relationship between thread and needles by reading the needle and thread chart on this page.

[Silerleatherworks]

Please explain Leather point Needle

 

[Wizcrafts]

1 hour ago, Silerleatherworks said:

Please explain Leather point Needle

 

This should help explain leather point needles: https://www.schmetz.com/en/industrial-needles/needle-compass/cutting-points/

[Frodo]

Rex 26-188

what would be the best needle/thread combination for holsters and belts? 

[Wizcrafts]

8 hours ago, Frodo said:

Rex 26-188

what would be the best needle/thread combination for holsters and belts? 

The thickest thread you can run through the Rex 26-188 is probably #207 on top and #138 in the bobbin. You will need a #24 needle to do this. If the leather isn't too dense you might be able to run #207 in the bobbin also.

This was discussed in a previous topic.

[Frodo]

On 11/16/2022 at 11:54 AM, Wizcrafts said:

The thickest thread you can run through the Rex 26-188 is probably #207 on top and #138 in the bobbin. You will need a #24 needle to do this. If the leather isn't too dense you might be able to run #207 in the bobbin also.

This was discussed in a previous topic.

Thank you Wiz

I picked up the 29k62 this morning

it is missing the bobbin and shuttle hook

 Do you have a 29k62 parts diagram?

and the name of a reliable  vender to supply these?

 

 

 

[Wizcrafts]

5 hours ago, Frodo said:

Thank you Wiz

I picked up the 29k62 this morning

it is missing the bobbin and shuttle hook

 Do you have a 29k62 parts diagram?

and the name of a reliable  vender to supply these?

 

 

 

You can order the hook and bobbins, threading rod and other replacement parts for shoe patchers from Bob Kovar (Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines), and from @shoepatcher  I uploaded three manuals for your patcher and similar models.

29K62.pdf Singer_29K.pdf Singer_29K58,_K60,_K62.pdf

[Goatmother]

On 7/25/2011 at 1:27 PM, Art said:

Leatherworker.net has become an international success. One problem, we and our industry are mired in a combination/confusion of Imperial/Metric/Trade measurements. This can be a problem when trying to talk about needles and threads. The following table deals primarily with twisted multifilament threads of the Nylon and Polyester varieties.

Needle and Thread.htm is attached, please bring it up in your browser and save the page to disk.

Needle and Thread.htm 2.44 kB · 4,403 downloads

Art

This is a great resource, Art, but I would like some additional help on thread.

Although I know synthetics are longer-lived in leather projects and that they won't rot or degrade like natural materials, I have a few reasons that I want to have biodegradable thread in most of what I make of leather.  Whether I am repairing harness or making clothing and accessories, I want to be able to return used leather items that have outlived their usefulness to the earth via composting.  

Could you provide information on natural threads, such as linen or hemp, that would be able to be used on a Singer 29K patcher and in hand sewing leather? Thanks for any advice you can give on types of threads and sources as well.

[Goatmother]

On 5/16/2021 at 10:23 AM, Wizcrafts said:

Those threads are glazed, or mercerized, but not bonded. You will have a hard time using cotton or linen thread is a normal sewing machine. The shoe threads are usually waxed before you sew. In the case of a sole stitcher, the wax is in a pot that feeds to a barbed needle. This strengthens the fibers. If you run this thread through a standard sewing machine, without wax, it will probably break during the take-up cycle. At least that was my experience with Barbour's Irish Linen glazed thread when I last tried it.

I was excited to see a post referring to a natural cotton thread available for use with machines.  I have read this "thread" with all your answers and would like to ask a clarifying question.

I have a Singer 29K15 which I bought before finding your excellent articles on these machines.  Yes, I know that my small bobbin is limiting but I have already done some big projects with many bobbin rewindings. 

I am determined to use natural, biodegradable thread so as to make my products compostable at end-of-life.

Considering your warnings about the need for waxing thread: Can I use the tallow pot at the top of the machine as it was intended, in order to "oil" the thread as it feeds through?  Since natural waxes that I am familiar with, such as beeswax, are not liquid at room temperature, is there a way to liquify a mixture of waxes to use in the tallow trough? After all, this is what shoemakers used to use, is it not?

If none of these solutions are acceptable, what would you recommend as a waxed natural thread to use in this machine for leather?

Thanks for your help!

[Wizcrafts]

16 hours ago, Goatmother said:

Considering your warnings about the need for waxing thread: Can I use the tallow pot at the top of the machine as it was intended, in order to "oil" the thread as it feeds through?  Since natural waxes that I am familiar with, such as beeswax, are not liquid at room temperature, is there a way to liquify a mixture of waxes to use in the tallow trough? After all, this is what shoemakers used to use, is it not?

Do this at your own risk. Wax on the top thread will clog up the top tension disks, then the paddle spring, then the eye of the needle. I imagine you can use it if you clean those items after each use. This means ramming the threading rod down the thread channel in the needle bar to push out the wax.

You should be able to simply wind waxed linen thread onto your bobbins. It might be worth trying waxed thread in the bobbin and dry glazed linen on top. You'll have to clean the wax that gets caught under the bobbin tension spring and the thread feed slot and the little output hole in the case.

[Goatmother]

On 12/5/2023 at 12:26 PM, Wizcrafts said:

Do this at your own risk. Wax on the top thread will clog up the top tension disks, then the paddle spring, then the eye of the needle. I imagine you can use it if you clean those items after each use. This means ramming the threading rod down the thread channel in the needle bar to push out the wax.

You should be able to simply wind waxed linen thread onto your bobbins. It might be worth trying waxed thread in the bobbin and dry glazed linen on top. You'll have to clean the wax that gets caught under the bobbin tension spring and the thread feed slot and the little output hole in the case.

Thank you for the warnings!  

Your suggestion about trying the linen threads brings up another question. I thought that the bobbin thread had to match the top thread.  Why would one use waxed thread in the bobbin and glazed linen on the top thread.  Would it not be just as well to use glazed linen for both? I am thinking that perhaps I can just treat the exposed thread after the item is made.

Also, could you recommend a source for good glazed linen thread please?

[Wizcrafts]

4 hours ago, Goatmother said:

Why would one use waxed thread in the bobbin and glazed linen on the top thread.  Would it not be just as well to use glazed linen for both?

My thinking was that you might get the benefit of the wax from the bottom thread. All of the knots would be waxed by the bobbin thread when they get pulled into the leather.

4 hours ago, Goatmother said:

Also, could you recommend a source for good glazed linen thread please?

They sell spools of  5 and 6 cord left twist glazed Irish Linen thread at Campbell-Randall, in Texas. I also found one spool of 3 cord still for sale on Etsy.

[Lancairuk]

Can anyone in the UK help me to find a supplier of DX-17 LR needles?  All the suppliers I can find only do round point. I also need a supplier of nylon thread suitable for. No 18 needle for a particular job I have in at the moment, but am finding it difficult to tie down reliable suppliers in the UK.  Many thanks,  Michael

[BelleH]

I have a small project and just purchased some Coats & Clark Upholstery thread.  The specs say the weight is 15 lbs.  What size needle should I use with this weight of thread.  The Coats site (and chat) were not helpful.  Thanks!