Juki 441 Clone Versus Adler 205-370

[jsmith]

I've had my Class4 about 2 months I can't say enough good things about the machine and service from Steve,Dave and Cobra staff.I've used several needle and awl machines as well as 205s the Class4 does it all at quite a bit of savings. Some like Adler some like Juki, Some like Ford some like Dodge. Talk to all the folks you can, form your own informed desision from there.

[wnkleather]

Say I'm convinced. How do I decide which clone? Must be cylinder arm. Rarely sew over 20oz total, 277 or 346 thread.

Say I'm convinced. How do I decide which clone? Must be cylinder arm. Rarely sew over 20oz total, 277 or 346 thread.

Since I have the 205 (and got it cheap), I'll probably want a machine for lighter work, say 138 or less, , still in cylinder arm, that way I have no real adjustments....do the machines built to sew 7/8" with 346 sew 8oz total chrome tan well?

I could even sell the 205 and look for a used, well maintained needle and awl, say a Union Special, if it were slow enough, and still get a lighter cylinder arm. Any suggestions?

[Wizcrafts]

Since I have the 205 (and got it cheap), I'll probably want a machine for lighter work, say 138 or less, , still in cylinder arm, that way I have no real adjustments....do the machines built to sew 7/8" with 346 sew 8oz total chrome tan well?

I could even sell the 205 and look for a used, well maintained needle and awl, say a Union Special, if it were slow enough, and still get a lighter cylinder arm. Any suggestions?

Here is a medium duty cylinder arm walking foot machine that sews up to 3/8 inch, with #138 thread.

I have been able to sew with 1/8 inch with both a Cobra Class 4 and a Cowboy CB4500. I changed to a #19 needle and used #92 thread.

While these machines sewed 8 ounces, they didn't do so without feeder issues. You see, the feed dog slots are very long and wide, to accommodate the equally huge feed dog. Soft, narrow leather straps may get pushed down into the slot in the throat plate, in front of the feed dog and sometimes, into the hole in the feed dog. The medium duty machine above has a much narrower feeder and plate cutout. It also has much shorter needles that don't flex as much as the long type 7x3 needles used in the 441 clones.

That said, I have learned that it really depends on what you are sewing on the 441, with small thread and needles, that can affect the outcome. I have no trouble hemming the cuffs on jeans, or leather coat sleeves, using #92 thread and a #19 needle on a big 441. But, trying to use it to sew the tip of a chap leather belt is a struggle.

You mentioned that you might look for a needle and awl machine. There is no Union Special needle and awl machine; they make garment sewing machines. There is a Union" Lockstitch" needle and awl machine. I happen to have my Union Lockstitch machine for sale.

[wnkleather]

Here is a medium duty cylinder arm walking foot machine that sews up to 3/8 inch, with #138 thread.

I have been able to sew with 1/8 inch with both a Cobra Class 4 and a Cowboy CB4500. I changed to a #19 needle and used #92 thread.

While these machines sewed 8 ounces, they didn't do so without feeder issues. You see, the feed dog slots are very long and wide, to accommodate the equally huge feed dog. Soft, narrow leather straps may get pushed down into the slot in the throat plate, in front of the feed dog and sometimes, into the hole in the feed dog. The medium duty machine above has a much narrower feeder and plate cutout. It also has much shorter needles that don't flex as much as the long type 7x3 needles used in the 441 clones.

That said, I have learned that it really depends on what you are sewing on the 441, with small thread and needles, that can affect the outcome. I have no trouble hemming the cuffs on jeans, or leather coat sleeves, using #92 thread and a #19 needle on a big 441. But, trying to use it to sew the tip of a chap leather belt is a struggle.

You mentioned that you might look for a needle and awl machine. There is no Union Special needle and awl machine; they make garment sewing machines. There is a Union" Lockstitch" needle and awl machine. I happen to have my Union Lockstitch machine for sale.

BRAIN @#$%. How is the learning curve?

[Wizcrafts]

BRAIN @#$%. How is the learning curve?

On which machine?

I read all the time about first time sewers buying a 441 clone and they learn to sew on the first day after setting it up. Others take longer to overcome newbie issues.

The medium duty 227 type machines are equally easy to learn to operate and are more flexible due to the large number of different presser feet and attachments available for them, which are not made for the 441s..

With any of these machines the most important lesson is to firmly hold back both threads before you begin to stitch. Don't let go until you either cross back over the first stitch, or have moved on about 3 stitches. The second most important lesson is to learn where every oil hole is and keep oil in them at all times. The third most important lesson is to not sew your fingers!

If you were asking about my Union Lockstitch Machine, I will gladly teach you how to operate and adjust it when you come to pick it up. A video camera that records audio would be a big help to you.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Wizcrafts

[wnkleather]

On which machine?

I read all the time about first time sewers buying a 441 clone and they learn to sew on the first day after setting it up. Others take longer to overcome newbie issues.

The medium duty 227 type machines are equally easy to learn to operate and are more flexible due to the large number of different presser feet and attachments available for them, which are not made for the 441s..

With any of these machines the most important lesson is to firmly hold back both threads before you begin to stitch. Don't let go until you either cross back over the first stitch, or have moved on about 3 stitches. The second most important lesson is to learn where every oil hole is and keep oil in them at all times. The third most important lesson is to not sew your fingers!

stitch

If you were asking about my Union Lockstitch Machine, I will gladly teach you how to operate and adjust it when you come to pick it up. A video camera that records audio would be a big help to you.

Some day I'm hoping to own a needle/awl as I see your stitch quality on top and bottom. I've also read that since they are square feed, stitch length does not change with thickness, among other benefits. Right now my shop is in my basement, and it seems a daunting task to get ANY needle/awl down there, much less someday get it back UP !!

Another issue is space - 3 sewing machines, bell skiver, hydraulic press, arbor press, cutting table, work tables......not a lot of room left down there. When my adult son wanted to move back home I said he could throw his mattress on the cutting table every night ! (just kidding) I have family in Brighton, MI., when I get over there (now that lake effect snow is done), I would love to see your Union in action.

[Blanket]

With any of these machines the most important lesson is to firmly hold back both threads before you begin to stitch. Don't let go until you either cross back over the first stitch, or have moved on about 3 stitches. The second most important lesson is to learn where every oil hole is and keep oil in them at all times. The third most important lesson is to not sew your fingers!

I cannot agree with you more especially the third lesson, I still don't know how I managed to sew my finger a while back but I will not do it again. LOL

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

Good stuff, most books call this item a 'tension wheel'.

[Frankqv]

I cannot agree with you more especially the third lesson, I still don't know how I managed to sew my finger a while back but I will not do it again. LOL

I have a Tippmann Areostith which I use exclusively for Holsters & Gun Belts. The areo has a pneumatic presser foot lift( it's up or down no in between)If you have your finger near the presser when you lift the foot ( like holding the top thread,to place under the presser once you raise it) ,it will drive your finger up through the needle, but you will only do that once,believe me.

[Colt W Knight]

I have a Tippmann Areostith which I use exclusively for Holsters & Gun Belts. The areo has a pneumatic presser foot lift( it's up or down no in between)If you have your finger near the presser when you lift the foot ( like holding the top thread,to place under the presser once you raise it) ,it will drive your finger up through the needle, but you will only do that once,believe me.

I did something similar removing some stuck thread from the bobbin area of my 206. needle went right through my index finger. wont be doing that again.