brutally honest criticism sub forum?

[cwa11is]

I have seen the most beautiful work here and have learned a library full of information, but I have also noticed that nobody ever says one negative "needs to improve" comment. In art school, we had weekly critiques that included "that sucks" type of comments, and why. It really helped to strive for perfection. I know that this site does wonders to promote the craft of leather working for beginners(myself included) and answers to questions to many technical difficulcties for others that actually know what they are doing, but I am suggesting that a sub forum be created for serious and dedicated people that could be judged harshly and honestly in order to achieve the utmost level of excellency....competition breeds supremacy ha ha. "Submit your work if you dare" sort of thing. Of course I don't think it should be used to spark anger or start arguments....just a place to accept criticism that points out one's inferior aspects for the porpose of strengthening our primary weaknesses...........and certainly NOT discourage anyone from picking up a swivel knife!!!! Enter at your own risk .

Just a thought?!

Chris

[TwinOaks]

just post your work in the Critique My Work section, and ask for brutally honest feedback. Also, don't expect someone to post "that sucks", because for the most part, we're an exceptionally well mannered forum. Most folks here aren't inclined to speak with that kind of tone, and will instead make suggestions that are more gently worded.

Besides, we're our own worst critics. If someone posts " I know it looks bad, can someone help me out and tell me why?" then it seems silly to blast the person. If a person is turning out production level work, has seen the art that is displayed on this site, and feels the work is worth displaying..... then the posted work is probably waaaaaay beyond such harsh criticism.

Edited July 13, 2008 by TwinOaks

[charley]

<snip>, ... Also, don't expect someone to post "that sucks", because for the most part, we're an exceptionally well mannered forum. Most folks here aren't inclined to speak with that kind of tone, and will instead make suggestions that are more gently worded. <snip>

Your words make sense. That makes me agree even more with Chris, that this might be another reason to create a separate forum. I'd like to loosen the tongues of the critics moreso than they are now.

I've long been disappointed with the lack of substantive feedback in the various leatherwork forums, email lists, guilds, and shows. (This is somewhat a long-running and disappointing topic for me that I've discussed with a number of people offline.)

Strong and clear feedback is important for the beginner, and even more so for the advanced craftsman that's in or aspiring to be in the "masters" category. If these forums don't or won't provide that (advanced criticism), where else can we go?

I partially agree that, "we are our own worst critic". However, that only works for the problems that we already see and understand. For example, how many of us are born with the genetic knowledge that the IFoLG judging rules require an odd number of stitches in the corner on laced items?

It's fun to "ooh" and "aaah" over pieces, and many of them truly deserve that. But, that's been a major complaint I have for some of the email lists I'm on -- one post, followed by ten "me, too!" posts that say literally nothing at all -- not even what they liked!

Of course, one-on-one tutelage under a master might be best, but it seems these forums have so much potential for more severe and structured feedback from so many more "sets of eyes". That's what I want also for my own work. (Momma thinks all my stuff is great, so I come here to get honest feedback from people that understand what they are seeing and can provide value in commentary -- Sorry, but Momma just can't do that.)

This isn't a complaint for this forum in particular -- I'm fairly disappointed with the "critiquing and feedback" category for the IFoLG shows and for other shows (e.g., Sheridan). Feedback is often inconsistent, opaque, insufficient, arbitrary, or unavailable. My "number one" complaint is that mostly, you have to make the mistake *yourself* to actually get the "teaching moment". (Touching the hot stove yourself is probably the best way to learn, but for many problems that's really an inefficient [and expensive] way to advance in skill.)

Yes, scribing and judging at IFoLG shows can be a source of this information, but catch me offline and I'll be specific in supporting my assertion that those are (or have been) consistently disappointing or insufficient.

I vote for the "Be Picky" Forum with hopes in fostering a culture of flowing honest feedback. After all, I don't intend on telling Momma what they said in that forum about the picture I made for her last Mother's Day.

[$$hobby]

I really havent seen anything on here that would warrant a "that sucks" or worse. Even when i was starting out in leatherwork and did my first tooling job, it wasnt that bad. it wasnt as good as others, but it wasnt a "that sucks". Everyone makes stuff to their own ability and what tools they have at hand or access to. If they have the opportunity to practice to better their skill then im sure it will show. also, sometimes you dont know how long theyve been working at their craft.

also, when youre looking at a picture, its sometimes hard/difficult to tell exactly what needs to be done or could be done better.

edit:

also. anyone can be a "critic". but can the "critic" do it better or teach that person how to do it better?

Edited July 13, 2008 by $$hobby

[Johanna]

Charley- I hear you loud and clear! The "critique my work" forum is for the brutally honest stuff, but not everyone wants that kind of feedback, which is why it is its own forum. You would be surprised at how many PMs (private messages) that do get sent when someone asks for honest help. I get cc'ed on some of them, and people do say their piece if the poster genuinely wants to hear it. ClayB is one of the experts at carefully wording a "how you could have done that differently/better/more professionally" and there are a handful of others who will tell you exactly what they think if they you ask them to, if they think you can take it. Some people respond to criticism by taking their tools and toys and going home, and some use the advice to improve. Sometimes people hesitate to say, "Wow, a cow had to die for that piece of crap you made?" (paraphrased from Al Stohlman) because they are polite. I suggest that when a member wants to hear what others think, and for them to be frank, that they say so in the post, and don't get offended if it isn't what the poster wanted or expected to hear. I agree that a lot of the competition judging is subjective, and often doesn't help the person learn how to not do the same mistakes again. I've seen it. It's also true that there are some guild lists that will moderate you if you type the truth as you know it and the original poster doesn't like the answer. We don't do that here. When the criticism is constructive, we all learn something and improve our skills. Good topic guys- thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.

Johanna

[CitizenKate]

Johanna beat me to that point, and put it much better than I would have.

It's easy to give constructive criticism that really helps people improve their work without being harsh. Just say, "If you want to improve your backgrounding (or whatever), try <doing this1>, <or this2>." If you can see anything positive or affirming to say about the piece, there is nothing harmful about mentioning it. It really isn't necessary to tell someone their work sucks. (Even if it really does.) And lastly, don't tell someone their work is awesome unless you really mean it.

Kate

[bruce johnson]

Charley,

I can agree with you also. On the other list I gave a mild another-way-to-do-it on an item I had done well over 200, and wasn't selling kits or class space. It wasn't even a critique of their show-off piece. Not sure how many the person had done, but their method was limited and cumbersome. I got a scathing offlist email reply from someone that all I do with my all posts was to stifle alternate thinking, come down hard on new crafters, and discourage others from posting. This particular individual still sends me BS offlist crap when I post to that group, and I now consider them a source of entertainment. They have recruited a couple others who do it on occasion also, often using the same phrasology so there is little doubt of the origin. I since have sent my critiques and suggestions off-list for the most part. I did make a mistake and sent Art S one on-list one time. The scathing off-list reply came in just before Art thanked me on list for being honest.

On this particular forum I generally go PM or email, and receive several emails and PMs on my work from guys I respect the input too. I think that some people don't want to come across as high and mighty, and unless brutal feedback for a critique is requested, it is hard to know how someone will take it. There are some great people on this forum, and there is a lot to be learned here.

[TwinOaks]

Charley, I can understand the intent of your post. However, I reiterate that the members (new and old) that produce work that could be entered into competition are not likely to post work that warrants ' Your work sucks. You have no business even posting here.' For the most part, the people interested in having work 'critiqued' are the ones still learning . Anyone who posts in the 'critique' section is already acknowledging that there are flaws in the piece, and is asking for someone to point it out. If you think you have a piece to enter in an IFoLG show, then you're probably (or should be) aware of rules, regulations, and judging criteria. That level of craft may be deserving of harsher criticism, but if it's good enough to compete, how much criticism is needed?

To the politeness of members here: I haven't seen or heard of a single 'flame war' between any members, nor any other strife. Do a search on Jbird. Look at his preliminary work. It isn't really something to write home about, but instead of lambasting him with "you can't carve worth a dang", or "man, I haven't seen work like that since I taught a bunch of 5th graders", the members responding to his posts gave truthful comments, offering suggestions on how to improve. Result? Instead of reading a bunch of hypercritical negative comments and thinking "this is a bunch of stuck up, unhelpful, SOBs", and putting down the leather because he was discouraged, he took what we gave him and did a little more. Now, his work has improved dramatically. (NOTE: Sorry Josh, these comments are not directed at you, but you've shown a lot of improvement so I'm using you as the example.)

If anyone has grown accustomed to getting the type of criticism you're suggesting, or feel that it's the only way to get a point across, or even find themselves responding to ONLY that type of criticism, they have my sympathies.

*late edit* when I started writing this, no posts after Charley's were present. I guess now I know why the @#$%$T% computer wouldn't post through! Jo, I think you said it very well.

Edited July 13, 2008 by TwinOaks

[jbird]

I agree with mike my work was some bad sh*%> and you all could see that but you did not give me the you suck line so thank instead you gave honest help hope one day you can say thats good work, glad to know you all .thanks for the help and Mike I think my work was worse than your giving it credit for Lol

josh

[ClayB]

I think this is a really good subject. I have been thinking about just this for a couple weeks now since Hilly posted a pattern she has drawn and asked for opinions on it. As with most places on the internet, when she posted it she recieved several responses saying "that's really nice". When I looked at it, I could see several things I didn't really like. Then I always wonder what to say because I dont want to be the negative one in the bunch that doesn't like something. So, like Bruce said he does, I sent a personal message because I felt that some of what I was seeing might be able to help Hilly out. She thanked me for being honest with her and I breathed a sigh of relief. You never know how people will take constructive critism no matter how carefully you word it.

I will always remember the first brutally honest criticism I got on a piece of my work. After reading several of the "nice job" emails, here comes one that really stings. I wondered "who is this lady and how dare she say that about my work". After I calmed down a bit and decided to read it again very carefully. I read a line, then looked at the work the comments were on and they were right on. Then the next line, right again. By the time I was finished, I realized there was a lot I could improve upon and wouldn't have known it if the person hadn't pointed it out. After that, whenever I posted something I expected to get very honest criticism from her and we became good friends my work improved tremendously because of her comments. A couple weeks ago I was talking to Clay Miller and he related almost the exact same story to me about the same person. I really miss Verlane!

I dont think anybody's work will ever deserve a "that sucks" comment and if it gets one here on this forum, I think the sender of that comment would get some hate mail back. I always remember what Bruce said about trying to find 3 things you like about a piece and 3 things you think you could improve upon. I think that if you are critiquing a piece, you should be able to point out the good as well as the bad. I haven't seen a lot of public critique from Bruce, but when he does, they are some of the best ones I have seen. I also saw a couple really good ones from Kieth Siedel. If you see something wrong and point it out, you ought to offer some ideas as to how to improve upon it. And you have to remember that there are almost always more than one way to do something and just because it isn't the way you do it, it isn't wrong.

Yes, brutally honest feedback can help you learn if you take it and learn from it. If you really want it, ask for it. But also know that it can be really hard for the person trying to give it for a lot of the reasons already mentioned.

I feel like I have rambled on enough here, but I hope that by talking about this, something good can come from it.