brutally honest criticism sub forum?

[cwa11is]

I have seen the most beautiful work here and have learned a library full of information, but I have also noticed that nobody ever says one negative "needs to improve" comment. In art school, we had weekly critiques that included "that sucks" type of comments, and why. It really helped to strive for perfection. I know that this site does wonders to promote the craft of leather working for beginners(myself included) and answers to questions to many technical difficulcties for others that actually know what they are doing, but I am suggesting that a sub forum be created for serious and dedicated people that could be judged harshly and honestly in order to achieve the utmost level of excellency....competition breeds supremacy ha ha. "Submit your work if you dare" sort of thing. Of course I don't think it should be used to spark anger or start arguments....just a place to accept criticism that points out one's inferior aspects for the porpose of strengthening our primary weaknesses...........and certainly NOT discourage anyone from picking up a swivel knife!!!! Enter at your own risk .

Just a thought?!

Chris

[TwinOaks]

just post your work in the Critique My Work section, and ask for brutally honest feedback. Also, don't expect someone to post "that sucks", because for the most part, we're an exceptionally well mannered forum. Most folks here aren't inclined to speak with that kind of tone, and will instead make suggestions that are more gently worded.

Besides, we're our own worst critics. If someone posts " I know it looks bad, can someone help me out and tell me why?" then it seems silly to blast the person. If a person is turning out production level work, has seen the art that is displayed on this site, and feels the work is worth displaying..... then the posted work is probably waaaaaay beyond such harsh criticism.

Edited July 13, 2008 by TwinOaks

[charley]

<snip>, ... Also, don't expect someone to post "that sucks", because for the most part, we're an exceptionally well mannered forum. Most folks here aren't inclined to speak with that kind of tone, and will instead make suggestions that are more gently worded. <snip>

Your words make sense. That makes me agree even more with Chris, that this might be another reason to create a separate forum. I'd like to loosen the tongues of the critics moreso than they are now.

I've long been disappointed with the lack of substantive feedback in the various leatherwork forums, email lists, guilds, and shows. (This is somewhat a long-running and disappointing topic for me that I've discussed with a number of people offline.)

Strong and clear feedback is important for the beginner, and even more so for the advanced craftsman that's in or aspiring to be in the "masters" category. If these forums don't or won't provide that (advanced criticism), where else can we go?

I partially agree that, "we are our own worst critic". However, that only works for the problems that we already see and understand. For example, how many of us are born with the genetic knowledge that the IFoLG judging rules require an odd number of stitches in the corner on laced items?

It's fun to "ooh" and "aaah" over pieces, and many of them truly deserve that. But, that's been a major complaint I have for some of the email lists I'm on -- one post, followed by ten "me, too!" posts that say literally nothing at all -- not even what they liked!

Of course, one-on-one tutelage under a master might be best, but it seems these forums have so much potential for more severe and structured feedback from so many more "sets of eyes". That's what I want also for my own work. (Momma thinks all my stuff is great, so I come here to get honest feedback from people that understand what they are seeing and can provide value in commentary -- Sorry, but Momma just can't do that.)

This isn't a complaint for this forum in particular -- I'm fairly disappointed with the "critiquing and feedback" category for the IFoLG shows and for other shows (e.g., Sheridan). Feedback is often inconsistent, opaque, insufficient, arbitrary, or unavailable. My "number one" complaint is that mostly, you have to make the mistake *yourself* to actually get the "teaching moment". (Touching the hot stove yourself is probably the best way to learn, but for many problems that's really an inefficient [and expensive] way to advance in skill.)

Yes, scribing and judging at IFoLG shows can be a source of this information, but catch me offline and I'll be specific in supporting my assertion that those are (or have been) consistently disappointing or insufficient.

I vote for the "Be Picky" Forum with hopes in fostering a culture of flowing honest feedback. After all, I don't intend on telling Momma what they said in that forum about the picture I made for her last Mother's Day.

[$$hobby]

I really havent seen anything on here that would warrant a "that sucks" or worse. Even when i was starting out in leatherwork and did my first tooling job, it wasnt that bad. it wasnt as good as others, but it wasnt a "that sucks". Everyone makes stuff to their own ability and what tools they have at hand or access to. If they have the opportunity to practice to better their skill then im sure it will show. also, sometimes you dont know how long theyve been working at their craft.

also, when youre looking at a picture, its sometimes hard/difficult to tell exactly what needs to be done or could be done better.

edit:

also. anyone can be a "critic". but can the "critic" do it better or teach that person how to do it better?

Edited July 13, 2008 by $$hobby

[Johanna]

Charley- I hear you loud and clear! The "critique my work" forum is for the brutally honest stuff, but not everyone wants that kind of feedback, which is why it is its own forum. You would be surprised at how many PMs (private messages) that do get sent when someone asks for honest help. I get cc'ed on some of them, and people do say their piece if the poster genuinely wants to hear it. ClayB is one of the experts at carefully wording a "how you could have done that differently/better/more professionally" and there are a handful of others who will tell you exactly what they think if they you ask them to, if they think you can take it. Some people respond to criticism by taking their tools and toys and going home, and some use the advice to improve. Sometimes people hesitate to say, "Wow, a cow had to die for that piece of crap you made?" (paraphrased from Al Stohlman) because they are polite. I suggest that when a member wants to hear what others think, and for them to be frank, that they say so in the post, and don't get offended if it isn't what the poster wanted or expected to hear. I agree that a lot of the competition judging is subjective, and often doesn't help the person learn how to not do the same mistakes again. I've seen it. It's also true that there are some guild lists that will moderate you if you type the truth as you know it and the original poster doesn't like the answer. We don't do that here. When the criticism is constructive, we all learn something and improve our skills. Good topic guys- thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.

Johanna

[CitizenKate]

Johanna beat me to that point, and put it much better than I would have.

It's easy to give constructive criticism that really helps people improve their work without being harsh. Just say, "If you want to improve your backgrounding (or whatever), try <doing this1>, <or this2>." If you can see anything positive or affirming to say about the piece, there is nothing harmful about mentioning it. It really isn't necessary to tell someone their work sucks. (Even if it really does.) And lastly, don't tell someone their work is awesome unless you really mean it.

Kate

[bruce johnson]

Charley,

I can agree with you also. On the other list I gave a mild another-way-to-do-it on an item I had done well over 200, and wasn't selling kits or class space. It wasn't even a critique of their show-off piece. Not sure how many the person had done, but their method was limited and cumbersome. I got a scathing offlist email reply from someone that all I do with my all posts was to stifle alternate thinking, come down hard on new crafters, and discourage others from posting. This particular individual still sends me BS offlist crap when I post to that group, and I now consider them a source of entertainment. They have recruited a couple others who do it on occasion also, often using the same phrasology so there is little doubt of the origin. I since have sent my critiques and suggestions off-list for the most part. I did make a mistake and sent Art S one on-list one time. The scathing off-list reply came in just before Art thanked me on list for being honest.

On this particular forum I generally go PM or email, and receive several emails and PMs on my work from guys I respect the input too. I think that some people don't want to come across as high and mighty, and unless brutal feedback for a critique is requested, it is hard to know how someone will take it. There are some great people on this forum, and there is a lot to be learned here.

[TwinOaks]

Charley, I can understand the intent of your post. However, I reiterate that the members (new and old) that produce work that could be entered into competition are not likely to post work that warrants ' Your work sucks. You have no business even posting here.' For the most part, the people interested in having work 'critiqued' are the ones still learning . Anyone who posts in the 'critique' section is already acknowledging that there are flaws in the piece, and is asking for someone to point it out. If you think you have a piece to enter in an IFoLG show, then you're probably (or should be) aware of rules, regulations, and judging criteria. That level of craft may be deserving of harsher criticism, but if it's good enough to compete, how much criticism is needed?

To the politeness of members here: I haven't seen or heard of a single 'flame war' between any members, nor any other strife. Do a search on Jbird. Look at his preliminary work. It isn't really something to write home about, but instead of lambasting him with "you can't carve worth a dang", or "man, I haven't seen work like that since I taught a bunch of 5th graders", the members responding to his posts gave truthful comments, offering suggestions on how to improve. Result? Instead of reading a bunch of hypercritical negative comments and thinking "this is a bunch of stuck up, unhelpful, SOBs", and putting down the leather because he was discouraged, he took what we gave him and did a little more. Now, his work has improved dramatically. (NOTE: Sorry Josh, these comments are not directed at you, but you've shown a lot of improvement so I'm using you as the example.)

If anyone has grown accustomed to getting the type of criticism you're suggesting, or feel that it's the only way to get a point across, or even find themselves responding to ONLY that type of criticism, they have my sympathies.

*late edit* when I started writing this, no posts after Charley's were present. I guess now I know why the @#$%$T% computer wouldn't post through! Jo, I think you said it very well.

Edited July 13, 2008 by TwinOaks

[jbird]

I agree with mike my work was some bad sh*%> and you all could see that but you did not give me the you suck line so thank instead you gave honest help hope one day you can say thats good work, glad to know you all .thanks for the help and Mike I think my work was worse than your giving it credit for Lol

josh

[ClayB]

I think this is a really good subject. I have been thinking about just this for a couple weeks now since Hilly posted a pattern she has drawn and asked for opinions on it. As with most places on the internet, when she posted it she recieved several responses saying "that's really nice". When I looked at it, I could see several things I didn't really like. Then I always wonder what to say because I dont want to be the negative one in the bunch that doesn't like something. So, like Bruce said he does, I sent a personal message because I felt that some of what I was seeing might be able to help Hilly out. She thanked me for being honest with her and I breathed a sigh of relief. You never know how people will take constructive critism no matter how carefully you word it.

I will always remember the first brutally honest criticism I got on a piece of my work. After reading several of the "nice job" emails, here comes one that really stings. I wondered "who is this lady and how dare she say that about my work". After I calmed down a bit and decided to read it again very carefully. I read a line, then looked at the work the comments were on and they were right on. Then the next line, right again. By the time I was finished, I realized there was a lot I could improve upon and wouldn't have known it if the person hadn't pointed it out. After that, whenever I posted something I expected to get very honest criticism from her and we became good friends my work improved tremendously because of her comments. A couple weeks ago I was talking to Clay Miller and he related almost the exact same story to me about the same person. I really miss Verlane!

I dont think anybody's work will ever deserve a "that sucks" comment and if it gets one here on this forum, I think the sender of that comment would get some hate mail back. I always remember what Bruce said about trying to find 3 things you like about a piece and 3 things you think you could improve upon. I think that if you are critiquing a piece, you should be able to point out the good as well as the bad. I haven't seen a lot of public critique from Bruce, but when he does, they are some of the best ones I have seen. I also saw a couple really good ones from Kieth Siedel. If you see something wrong and point it out, you ought to offer some ideas as to how to improve upon it. And you have to remember that there are almost always more than one way to do something and just because it isn't the way you do it, it isn't wrong.

Yes, brutally honest feedback can help you learn if you take it and learn from it. If you really want it, ask for it. But also know that it can be really hard for the person trying to give it for a lot of the reasons already mentioned.

I feel like I have rambled on enough here, but I hope that by talking about this, something good can come from it.

[charley]

Charley,

I can agree with you also. On the other list I gave a mild another-way-to-do-it on an item I had done well over 200, and wasn't selling kits or class space. It wasn't even a critique of their show-off piece. Not sure how many the person had done, but their method was limited and cumbersome. I got a scathing offlist email reply from someone that all I do with my all posts was to stifle alternate thinking, come down hard on new crafters, and discourage others from posting. <snip>,

On this particular forum I generally go PM or email, and receive several emails and PMs on my work from guys I respect the input too. I think that some people don't want to come across as high and mighty, and unless brutal feedback for a critique is requested, it is hard to know how someone will take it. There are some great people on this forum, and there is a lot to be learned here.

Hi, Bruce--

I've seen your feedback here and in other forums -- and you have a review style that I happen to like very much! Detailed, substantive, with real suggestions on things to watch for or techniques to try.

I have also noticed that some forums find feedback like that "bad form" in public settings, and I've guessed that the drop-off in posts like yours is because that type of commentary is discouraged. <sigh>, I think that's a mistake (for the forum and our whole community).

I think other reviewers would benefit from reading what you write. I know *I* benefit from it directly (e.g., I've saved some of your posts with comments on others' works, so I can keep reviewing examples of good-and-bad).

I understand the role for PM and off-list, but I also like seeing at least some of this in the public arena because I believe it trains all of us in providing good feedback (as well as raising the bar for skills). I know not everyone is ready for that type of criticism, which is partly why I think a "Be Picky" forum is a good idea.

Johanna makes a good point, this is the purpose for the "critique my work" forum. So maybe I'm emoting for no reason (other than I'm a jerk, which is true). Perhaps I'm whining about needing a forum for "Be Picky" feedback, versus "Be Gentle" feedback (which is my general feel for the "critique my work" forums, or any other list I'm on.)

In short, "Be Gentle" doesn't do anything for me. I'm past that, and largely don't learn anything from those posts. In regards to "Be Picky", I can't count the number of times I've seen the picture in the first post, formed my own opinion, and then after reading review comments and suggestions from a set of follow-up posts, I've had to go back and re-look at the picture. Because of this process, I now notice things I never did before. (I want more of this!)

Sadly, those posts are fairly infrequent, and seem to be downright discouraged (as you mention).

Oh, well. To each his own, I guess. I know for many leather work is recreation, and for many, production work that sells is sufficient; and I don't want to make it a chore. Maybe I'm weird because this is a big topic for me. ;-))

I suppose in the short run a post to "critique my work" with a request for detailed/masters-level feedback is probably sufficient. Perhaps we don't have sufficient posting volume or interest to create a "Be Picky" forum. My goal, however, was more similar to what Chris originally suggested -- I'd like a cultural shift or forum where the standard is assumed to be very high, to raise all of our skills and expectations.

Not everyone wants to attend Juilliard, but I sure like the idea that it exists.

--charley

[charley]

<deleting duplicate post>

Edited July 13, 2008 by charley

[Hilly]

I also feel that "You suck" is totally wrong. When I ask for a crititque, I'm hoping someone will point out things that they like, as well as things I can improve on. You can't correct things unless you know what it is you're doing wrong, and sometimes you need to see it through other people's eyes.

I thank you Clay B., for pointing out things the way that you did, and I will never take offense at constructive criticism. You don't need to be afraid of being brutally honest with me.

I must add that I have many, MANY times seen work posted that I thought was awesome, and never said a word, but also, work that was like nails on a chalk board to my eyes, and never said a word. What I see as bad work, would probably be seen as awesome by someone else, so I tend to just keep my mouth shut, or try to say something positive, as do most people here. I realise that most beginners make the same mistakes, and that most show improvement with each piece they do. I am also, pretty much a novice, so I don't feel that my opinions are very valid. Maybe after I've trashed a few of 55 gallon drums of leather, I will have more to say. Until then, everyone can expect to hear something positive from me.

Encouragement before criticism usually works well.

Hilly

[jbird]

I agree with hilly on every thing and I to like clays style of help he is honest and fair and I would also say Bruce has been one of those great guys he is honest and fair you can all be brutally honest with me, and I know that is hard to do since my work sucks.

Josh.

Edited July 13, 2008 by jbird

[Jordan]

My work is no where near the quality I see on this board. Having established that, constructive comments are always welcome. I am of the opinion that it is very obvious to most readers when a statement by a writer is meant to be helpful or hurtful. I appreciate the fact that members of this board strive to be helpful and take the time to think about what they write in the you suck arena.

[John D Dennehy]

"you think you have a piece to enter in an IFoLG show, then you're probably (or should be) aware of rules, regulations, and judging criteria. That level of craft may be deserving of harsher criticism, but if it's good enough to compete, how much criticism is needed?"

Very interesting subject and read this morning folks. This particular statement is of particular interest to me as I would like to start sending in a few entries to the IFOLG shows. I have gleaned some pointers in the last couple of years that I never knew. I have asked questions and looked online but have not found a "rulebook" per se with written criteria for the judges to follow.

For example I have heard that on belts they look for an exact spacing between the leather and hardware. I have also heard that all items are to be hand stitched.

I love honest criticsm of my work at all times and am very receptive to it. This makes me work harder to kick it up a notch. What I would like to know is where is this list of rules, regulations and especially the judging criteria and how does the average person get a copy? I want to find out specific things to make sure I have done the project correctly (according to the rulebook and guidelines).

If this needs to go to a different thread then I would love to see it elaborated on. Maybe some of you that have lots of judging type show experiance can join in. I know that I would sure appreciate some feedback. Maybe this will shave a few of the school of hard knocks years off for many of us that have not entered many shows.

Thanks,

Edited July 13, 2008 by thewildirishrose

[ArtS]

Since I'm still learning I always love to have my problems pointed out to me. My goal it to improve and thats one reason I'm here. I also get great ideas and learn a lot by seeing other's work here. When I do see what appear to be errors and places to improve to be honest I usually don't say anything. I feel that since I'm still learning I'll let the really good folks respond. That may not be the best way but I'm timid in that respect.

But to all those that have helped me THANK YOU SO MUCH! Please keep criticizing and giving me advice. This site has really opened up my eyes to so many different types of leather work.

ArtS

[Johanna]

John-

http://www.leatherworker.net/tipstricks.htm

scroll halfway down and look at the IFoLG guidelines/rules pages.

~J

[charley]

I also feel that "You suck" is totally wrong. <snip>,

Encouragement before criticism usually works well.

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating pointless criticism. I'm advocating directed feedback. The "You suck" idea is a bit over-simplified, and not an accurate characterization of the topic, IMHO. However, since several people chimed in with that thought, I wanted to address it directly.

In general, when the reviewer speaks, it should be to achieve a specific outcome (draw to the forefront a positive or negative, problem-solve an approach, provide guidance on alternatives, etc.) Nobody is talking about "You suck" as a valid message.

You open a book, and the author speaks to you. That's not true for another author and another book. People are different, and we respond to different input (i.e., we disagree on favorite authors). Some people burst into tears at a feigned compliment, and some people need a two-by-four broken over their head to look up from their work or modify their behavior.

Providing critique is a skill. Its method of application varies depending on forum, expectations, and target audience. We will always have qualified masters who may not be good reviewers (or not good reviewers for a given student). Further, we will always have reviewers that are wrong, are jerks, don't know what they are talking about, or are otherwise not perceived as helpful. That's another good reason to critique in public -- so we can all learn how to do it better.

I'm not talking about harsh criticism for newbies or children. I'm talking about adult feedback to adults aspiring to be masters. Yes, I'm asserting more of this is needed in our community.

I agree with Bruce and Clay that it's a good idea to list three things you like and three things to consider improving. I also acknowledge that forums can establish their own arbitrary rules, or convention, or culture, for what makes an acceptable review or an acceptable public comment.

While any of us can have opinions for what makes a good review, I don't think there is any real "one-size-fits-all". Thus, I similarly think it's unrealistic to make absolute statements like "never say it sucks".

In a one-on-one between master and student, I think it's absolutely fine if the master is exceedingly demanding. That's what I'd want. I think that model is actually far improved for fifty-to-one when there are fifty masters commenting on the student's work: Fifty sets of eyes are better than one set, and the student can accept or reject based on the commentaries that make sense or are most helpful. In the "olden days", the apprentice was at the mercy of one master, without recourse. We're not there anymore. In this case, the public forum can actually *defend* the student from ill-advised or inappropriate comments from one reviewer.

No, that may not be for everyone. But that's what *I* prefer.

Summary: I'm not proposing a forum for public disemboweling. However, we should recognize and agree that our opinions of what constitutes "harsh" differ, and I *am* proposing a room where the temperature rises a few (dozen) degrees Celcius.

...

I'll back off now because it's not my intent to dominate the conversation. ;-))

--charley

[rdb]

Very Good Post Charley! Keep up the the Good Work!!!...ROFL.

[Admin]

Yep, Charley- good post. Kick it up a notch. I've never worried about anyone leading anyone astray on LW because there are plenty of peers to keep things honest. I'd be glad to put together a list of qualified people who will agree to critique work if it will help. LW has a lot of experts in many fields, and most of them are generous with their time and expertise. It's refreshing to hear that there are some people who really want to reach their full potential, and it's fantastic that we have the people who can help them to do it. I was never crazy about mediocre either...that's why LW was born.

Johanna

[cwa11is]

Whoa!! Okay, okay..The "you suck" was a bad generalization of several types of comments made in a college typography class that I took in the 80's before computers, when professional graphic design was created by hand with a pencil and eraser shields. A bunch of us were 23 and thought we were the creme of the crop and this instructor would say things like "The top curve of that S looks like the Hunchback of Notre Dame when he's drunk" First of all, it put us all in the mindset that we were not masters and made us work really hard to achieve a higher level of perfection. Secondly this a class of people that were trying to become professionals and needed to know that they either had potential to succeed or whether they needed to go back a few steps and learn some basics. Thirdly, it was extremely entertaining if you had thick enough skin to deal with it. Skill level for those going into that class jumped tremendously by the time we came out. That is why I suggested a separate subforum for such things. "That Sucks" was a bad generalization because there was never any personal insults, but it felt that way hearing negative criticism of something you thought was good enough.

[Crystal]

I am always looking for the "advice" or "critique" or "should've done this" in all the posts on the board. I have seen some work that I thought was really nice then a few replies later and a comment is made on how to improve or change something - I go back, look at the pic and sure enough I have an "ah ha" moment and see what was wrong . I am just not experienced enough to know what is wrong or the better way to do something. I really want the critique. I want the help. I want to get really good at this.

I was always under the assumtion that if you wanted help to post in the "Critique My Work". I want to thank everyone who has taken the time to reply and comment and suggest and yes - the "atta boy" comments help keep the motivation flowing.

LW is a wonderful place - the range of skill and talent here is just amazing. This is the only exposure I have to this kind of work and I am treating it like my school. I have never been to a show, I am hours away from any kind of store, PA is kind of dry in the "workshop" area- I've never had any classes or seen leatherwork done in person, so this is the only place I can get any real help or knowledge. I rely on the comments to improve and I appreciate everyone who takes the time to help me and all the other members.

Crystal

[Pip]

I have to say, that I agree with all this in some degree or another. I have posted items in the critique section and expected criticism, if i don't want critisism then I post in the show off section (although I still expect some criticism). I think if someone says you could do this better then I listen, If they say you suck then I figure they don't like it. No biggy.

I have been fortunate to grow up in an area where criticism is freely given, and our sense of humour revolves around taking the mickey out of each other. So I am not overly sensitive, but helpful criticism is always welcome.

One thing I do find difficult, is to get my point across, without sounding like an Arse especially when I am tired. I often reword posts several times and end up deleting them before I post, or afterward (in one specific case) finding that they sound mean or unhelpful. I am new(ish) to leather but have been an artist, woodland crafter, bushcrafter for a long time. All the forums I have attended I have ended up putting my foot in it, at least once (or twice).

Ah ha moments are really important especiaslly when backed up with knowledge of someone who has done it before.

[ClayB]

Several posts to this topic were lost to the hacker. I had a few of the yet on my computer, so trying to fill in some of the blanks.

Been away from the computer a few days and just found this topic..... I too have been a bit frustrated with the lack of content in the critiques. Many times I have expected to see more in-depth comment only to find that comments have been made off public forum in PM's. This does not inspire others to post nor does it encourage us to continue to participate in the discussions. I have found that even the beginner has experiences and views that I can learn from. Sometimes have to look pretty hard, but everyone knows something that I do not. If you post your comments privately, I cannot learn from you and cannot participate.

If one only wants to do leatherwork as a hobby, the critique can be more generic, but when one is striving to be a professional and do the highest quality work, we owe it to them to help them find flaws and sugest other ways.

I suspect that we have become too politically correct, and afraid of offending. If we don't want real advice and criticism, we ought not to ask. Sometimes a more heated discussion makes us evaluate our position more thoroughly. What we think we KNOW, may not be absolute and may need to be questioned.

Keith

Very interesting topic and by the responses i'd say there are a good number of us a bit disappointed with some of the critiquing that has gone on. That said, I have often noticed that the photos provided for critiquing don't always give us an honest view of the work. An example of this as applies to saddlery would be a side view of a saddle that simply shows the saddle as a whole. If I am to critique such a photo, there is very little I can say... I cannot see if a cantle binding is straight and even with well done handstitching, I cannot tell if the edges have been finished nicely or the leather of the horn cap is even from left to right, I can't tell if the borders are even or the details of the stamping. About the only option it gives me is to tell someone they have nice, balanced lines to the saddle or perhaps they need to change proportions of a fender or skirt. The point is that if I want someone to honestly critique my work, I need to make an effort to post clear photos showing areas that are difficult for me so that people can offer suggestions that will be of real help. If I claim to want critiquing and fail to show the small details, perhaps all i'm asking for is a pat on the back and someone to say "nice work"!

Darc

Hi Kieth. I have seen your work, and I don't think there's a person on this forum who could find fault with your work. The only critique you'll ever get from me is 2 thumbs up. You do fantastic work, and I only dream of being half that good some day.

Hilly

Hi Hilly, Guess I'll have to post something anonomously and see what kind of response I would get. HAHAHA

Keith

I never thought this post would generate this much discussion, but I feel most of the replies are missing the point of my original intent. I suggested an entirely separate category for those who might want more serious input, not the general attitude of the forum as a whole. I also said that I would not want to discourage anyone from this craft. Hell, I'm a beginner at this medium myself! But I would also like to learn the more nitpicky details of what people observe as high-quality or lack thereof.

Chris

Most of the time, the saddles on this forum are in the gallery section, not the critique my work section. And most of the time they dont ask for a critique, so I'm not inclined to do so. If they dont ask or post in the critique section, how are we supposed to know they want one? I do agree that we all glean from constructive criticism and I find this an interesting topic.

TroyWest

Chris,

I think it is getting lost in the discussion, but we do have two separate areas that work can be posted to. One is the "Show Off" section on the Leather worker Board division and the other is the "Critique My Work" section of the same division. I think your original post and the whole discussion that followed has been excellent. It has shown that maybe the PC approach is not always desired, and that open gloves-off critique is wanted by quite a few. My thoughts are that if it is in the Show Off section, probably I'd be more inclined to go PC. If it is in the Critique My Work, I'd be a little more open. We already have these, just maybe haven't delineated the purpose ad differences of each as "staff" or as users. In my opinion Keith's post of not going to the PMs and offlists makes a lot of sense, and I plan to keep it on board.

Bruce

We all learn when we keep things on the board.

Here's an offer for the shy or the famous: if you want to post something anonymously for a real critique, send it to admin@leatherworker.net and I'll post it. Your identity will not be revealed unless you request it after you get your honest feedback.

Johanna