Customized Handguns, Tactical Lights, Etc. Reality Rears Its Ugly Head Again.

[Lobo]

Just received another inquiry (I receive a couple every week) from a gentleman who owns a 1911 pistol with Dawson rail attached, with Surefire X300 tactical light attachment, wanting a IWB-style holster made. The following is my reply.

_________________________________________________________________________

Thanks for your interest.

I offer 11 holster designs, with or without 4 common options, in 4 finish colors, left-hand and right-hand, for 139 different handguns, resulting in over 60,000 possible variations and more than 10,000 patterns in file for regular use. I still receive requests for others almost daily.

Assuming that holsters for handguns with tactical lights attached were remotely practical, and assuming that I selected only a dozen or so of the currently available tactical lights to acquire and use for patterning and forming holsters, I would then be up to around 700,000 possible variations and around 100,000 patterns in file (each of which takes a couple of hours work to generate, so about 100 years of working 40 hours per week on the patterns before a holster could be produced). Even then, the "new and improved" versions that are announced just about every week would render everything else obsolete and start the whole process over again.

Life was so much more simple 40 years ago when I took my first holster order. Half a dozen handgun manufacturers, each offering half a dozen handgun models. Now there are dozens of makers, each offering dozens of models, and new variations being announced every week. Just keeping up with the GUNS available could take a couple of people working full time every day. Adding in all the aftermarket accessories would push the possible variations into the millions.

Almost all holster making is done using "dummy guns", cast replicas of the originals usually so accurate that the serial numbers can be read. Dummies are usually available only for current production handguns that have achieved a significant market share. Newly introduced handguns are almost never available as dummies until they have been on the market for a year or so. Most handgun models are never offered as dummies because the market is so small.

Unfortunately, those who choose to acquire the "newest and latest thing" will usually find nothing available in holsters for a long time. Those who customize their weapons, or add aftermarket accessories, will always find it impossible to purchase a production holster. The only possible alternative is to make your handgun available for patterning and fitting a holster by a custom maker. This work involves multiple hours in patterning, prototype production and testing, adjusting the pattern, producing additional prototypes, etc, before the final result can be produced. Very few folks are willing to pay for the time involved. Even those who are will find that the various federal, state, and local laws pertaining to firearms transfers can make it difficult, expensive, and risky to move forward on such a process.

The best advice I can offer is to locate a holster maker within your state of residence, as close as possible to your home, then open up your checkbook and be ready to pay several times the price of any production holster to have what you want created.

_______________________________________________________________________

I'm saving this one for replies to the next couple of hundred folks with the same idea in mind.

Edited November 17, 2012 by Lobo

[katsass]

VERY well said Ray. Mike

[TwinOaks]

Ray, that has got to be one of the best worded refusals I've ever read.

[Mike Craw]

Hey Lobo!

I think you obviously thought long and hard before you carefully worded your reply. It was a lot classier than mine would have been!! One grumpy old guy already responded, and as an equally grumpy old cop I second his thoughts. After almost 40 years of carrying a firearm in the line of duty, and 30 years of making leather gear for my own use and the use of those guys and gals who chose my stuff to carry when they went in harm's way, I find myself shaking my head at some of what passes for conventional wisdom these days.

It seems like some folks are spending all their time dreaming up gadgets and gun writers haven't seen one yet that they didn't absolutely love and think you ought to buy! When semi-autos first came on the scene, one "old" firearms instructor I worked with (even older than I was) used to tell the youngsters who showed up at the range with them, "Well, I guess if you can't hit anything with the first six, ten or twelve is probably a good idea..." Obviously, as firepower bacame a greater issue, the transition was inevitable, but things are getting a little crazy.

I'm sure your customer can't understand how you could turn down such a reasonable request, since he seem to think he can carry a 1911 with a search light INSIDE the waistband without looking like he's smuggling grapefruit!

I think you crafted a very professional and straightforward response, and you absolutely should save it for future use, because I'm sure you will need it again.

Mike

[shadowryder]

tell him to put the "torch" in his pocket Yeah,,

[immiketoo]

That was an impressive piece of refusal sir. I carry a weaponlight ON duty, not off. I can't imagine a scenario where a ccw holster NEEDs a light.

[chiefjason]

Nice! The vast majority of my refusals are either odd guns with no molds or accessories. With accessories I generally ask the customer to get me accurate measurements of the accessory. From their I can occasionally work something out without the actually light/laser/etc. I'm also doing most of this in kydex which is easier and more forgiving IMO. Leather would seriously complicate the process. And none of the manufacturers list any real measurements to work from. I figure if the customer is willing to get me the measurements they are serious enough about it for me to proceed. Then, once I have my mocked up accessory I keep it with the blue gun to use later. I built a Lasermax laser for an LC9 last week out of scrap leather and it worked great. But then again, I'm the kind of holster maker you are referring this guy too. Someone who is willing to do all that extra work for a sale.

[dickf]

Just received another inquiry (I receive a couple every week) from a gentleman who owns a 1911 pistol with Dawson rail attached, with Surefire X300 tactical light attachment, wanting a IWB-style holster made. The following is my reply.

_________________________________________________________________________

Thanks for your interest.

I offer 11 holster designs, with or without 4 common options, in 4 finish colors, left-hand and right-hand, for 139 different handguns, resulting in over 60,000 possible variations and more than 10,000 patterns in file for regular use. I still receive requests for others almost daily.

Assuming that holsters for handguns with tactical lights attached were remotely practical, and assuming that I selected only a dozen or so of the currently available tactical lights to acquire and use for patterning and forming holsters, I would then be up to around 700,000 possible variations and around 100,000 patterns in file (each of which takes a couple of hours work to generate, so about 100 years of working 40 hours per week on the patterns before a holster could be produced). Even then, the "new and improved" versions that are announced just about every week would render everything else obsolete and start the whole process over again.

Life was so much more simple 40 years ago when I took my first holster order. Half a dozen handgun manufacturers, each offering half a dozen handgun models. Now there are dozens of makers, each offering dozens of models, and new variations being announced every week. Just keeping up with the GUNS available could take a couple of people working full time every day. Adding in all the aftermarket accessories would push the possible variations into the millions.

Almost all holster making is done using "dummy guns", cast replicas of the originals usually so accurate that the serial numbers can be read. Dummies are usually available only for current production handguns that have achieved a significant market share. Newly introduced handguns are almost never available as dummies until they have been on the market for a year or so. Most handgun models are never offered as dummies because the market is so small.

Unfortunately, those who choose to acquire the "newest and latest thing" will usually find nothing available in holsters for a long time. Those who customize their weapons, or add aftermarket accessories, will always find it impossible to purchase a production holster. The only possible alternative is to make your handgun available for patterning and fitting a holster by a custom maker. This work involves multiple hours in patterning, prototype production and testing, adjusting the pattern, producing additional prototypes, etc, before the final result can be produced. Very few folks are willing to pay for the time involved. Even those who are will find that the various federal, state, and local laws pertaining to firearms transfers can make it difficult, expensive, and risky to move forward on such a process.

The best advice I can offer is to locate a holster maker within your state of residence, as close as possible to your home, then open up your checkbook and be ready to pay several times the price of any production holster to have what you want created.

_______________________________________________________________________

I'm saving this one for replies to the next couple of hundred folks with the same idea in mind.

I'd like to see 10k patterns all spread out!

I take a different approach when declining a project. I think this one is condescending and sarcastic, and you have NO idea what the end-user intends to do with that gear. Some folks have special needs for special jobs. You may have been a LEO and holstermaker for 25+ years, but your end-user/customer could be someone who significantly outranks you when it comes to tour of duty and/or being dropped in the shit. A copy/paste reply is like pressing 1 for English and then 2 for customer service. If you're a custom maker, you MUST talk to your customers and get all the details. You never know who you're dealing with, and they very well could know much more than you think. If you don't feel like you can make the holster they want and make it up to your standards, then say so and move on. Insulting their knowledge because you're not the right maker isn't necessary.

Just my $.02

[Russ]

I take a different approach when declining a project. I think this one is condescending and sarcastic, and you have NO idea what the end-user intends to do with that gear.

Before this reply, I was afraid I was going to be a jerk disagreeing with the majority here. I agree with dickf, I think this refusal letter is a little overdone. I got to the point that I was skipping the lecture and looking at the final sentence to see what the end result was....I'm positive I would never send this to a customer unless I wanted a lot of bad word-of-mouth.

[K-Man]

I'd like to see 10k patterns all spread out!

I take a different approach when declining a project. I think this one is condescending and sarcastic, and you have NO idea what the end-user intends to do with that gear. Some folks have special needs for special jobs. You may have been a LEO and holstermaker for 25+ years, but your end-user/customer could be someone who significantly outranks you when it comes to tour of duty and/or being dropped in the shit. A copy/paste reply is like pressing 1 for English and then 2 for customer service. If you're a custom maker, you MUST talk to your customers and get all the details. You never know who you're dealing with, and they very well could know much more than you think. If you don't feel like you can make the holster they want and make it up to your standards, then say so and move on. Insulting their knowledge because you're not the right maker isn't necessary.

Just my $.02

+1

I learned early on to listen to what the customer is looking for. A condescending reponse to a potential customer that you're unable to, or do not desire to, help does nothing more than show one's arrogance and does not justify the need for a diatribe IMO.

Edited November 18, 2012 by K-Man