Are The Old Machines Better/more Reliable Than The New Clones?

[Colt W Knight]

Absolutely correct, Colt, but I also believe people took more pride in their products back in the old days.

The pre-'64 model 94 had better steel, more accurate machining, and stronger/better action than the post 94s, and the reason was to save money on production. So in my opinion, the older Winchester is better/more reliable than the post '64s. That does not mean that the post 64's are no good, it just means I'd rather have a pre-'64,,, because it's better.

Now I am really getting off topic, but I love talking about firearms. ( I think the newest Model 70s built by FN in South Carolina would give those old pre 64s a run for their money, and shoot more accurately.

In 1940, the avg US income was 1,368$/year, and a new Model 70 was 106$ - that represents 7.75% of the purchasers income.

in 2014, the ave US income was 53,891$/year, and a new Model 70 is 899$ - that represents 1.67% of the purchasers income.

Inflation calculator says 106$ in 1940 = 1802.23$ in 2014

If anyone has similar info on sewing machines, I would love to see the comparison.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Colt W Knight

[gottaknow]

Something else to ponder. All of those old machines, though well made, still had quirks, design errors etc. At some point in that machines lifespan, a good mechanic got a hold of it and as a result, it's still sewing strong. The absolute darkest years for industrials was after the apparel companies began leaving the country. Many of those companies made machines in the US. Because we couldn't compete with their low labor dollars, the machine companies began to develop machines that were meant to cut sewing time for a given job. Needle positioner systems were the new rage starting in the late 60's. Singer made a 2281 with a top shaft mount motor and positioning system all in one. Every function was controlled with a huge array of circuit boards in a huge box under the machine. The underbed trimmers on these machines were a nightmare. Every single one we bought had to be modified and still they sucked. In the early 80's, Union Special made a needle feed lockstitch machine with a needle positioner, foot lift (air) and underbed trimmer. They sewed really well, but again, the knife system sucked.

I guess my point is this. Sewing machines evolve every day. Yes, the early machinists were amazing. So is a cnc machine. The new Juki 9010-SH needle feed lockstitch will out sew a Singer 211 walking foot machine. We are using more of those in our luggage division, replacing triple feed machines. I've been a sewing machine mechanic for 34 years. Apprenticing a new mechanic takes 5 years minimum, in a factory, 40 hrs/wk. I do love my old machines I still have in service. I have a Reece 101 keyhole buttonhole machine (think Levi's) that has 400,000,000 stitches sewn. (has a counter). Made in the USA in 1962. It will soon become a backup machine to a new Reece buttonhole now made overseas. We'll see.

Regards, Eric

[Constabulary]

Catskin - if you are pointing on me you probably got me wrong. I don´t say the new (or Chinese made) machines are bad, most are for sure not bad. I just doubt that they are as long living as the machines form the 1930´s - 1950´s I even think that the tolerances are tighter than 50 years ago - but is it good or is it bad? It pretty much depends on the materials (f.i. forged iron or just cast iron) they have used. A friend of mine once told me that nowadays when you see a lot of chrome or nickel plated parts on a machine (not only sewing machines) it is pretty obvious that the parts are not forged. It most likely is cheap cast iron and the chrome / nickel plating just covers the poor casting and shall make it look like high quality. Often enough old simple technology is longer lasting than anything new build. But I thing the example with the Artisan feet that I gave is pretty obvious. To me it looks like the machine was just made to sell fast and to make profit. If they were made to last I think spare parts shouldn´t be a problem for a 10 or 20 years old machine.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Constabulary

[lranger]

I totally understand that the manufacturing concept changed, starting around the 1960's I think, aiming to save on production costs and reduce the life of products in order to increase the bottom line of manufacturers and to keep the world economies rolling. I don't even disagree with that concept, to a certain degree. In the old days, they made things to last,,,, even toys. Nowadays, they only want things to last as long as what the warranty is, or less, and they have that down really good.

My problem with it is that they have gone so far with it that you have to be really careful when you buy something or else it may not even work when you get home with it. I am particularly aggravated with the automotive industry, but it applies to everything. Maybe it's just my age,,, older people tend to like the old things, and resist change, wanting things to stay the way they were. The world and economies have changed, but it sure is getting hard to buy a new vehicle these days, for one thing. My brother says I need to quit living in the past. Maybe he's right, but I still think things were better in the past in a lot of ways.

[Tejas]

This topic reminds me an often retold quality control story.

'In the early 70’s, Ford Motor Company bought an interest in the Japanese automobile company, Mazda. Shortly after the partnership started, Ford discovered that the Japanese manufactured transmissions were seven times more reliable and smoother running than the American-made version. The management team at Ford disassembled the Japanese transmission and to their surprise, discovered that the parts were meticulously machined to a tolerance way beyond industry specifications. The blueprints allowed a tolerance of plus or minus a few millimeters, and while the American-made gears varied within the allowable tolerance, all of the Japanese-made gears were right on the desired value with a negligible amount of variation. The American transmission was built with a standard of “good enough” because it met the acceptable levels for tolerance.'

https://www.salesgravy.com/sales-articles/professional-development/professional-goals-pursue-excellence-dont-settle-for-just-good-enough.html

Apparently, US machinists set the milling machines at one end of the tolerance and ran the machines until wear on the cutting tools resulted in parts at the other end of the tolerance. Japanese machinists reset the machines on each part to the desired tolerance.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Tejas

[lranger]

Yes, this is kind of the point of my frustration with manufacturers. I just wish they would get back to doing a thing right. They have more knowledge of metals, and better, computer controlled machinery, so why can't they make things to more exacting tolerances and still save money?

I am a lifelong General Motors owner. I am the second owner of a 1983 Chevy pickup that has 140,000 miles on it, and is still a good, dependable truck. I recently upgraded to a 2000 Chevy 2500 truck with a 6.0 litre engine in it. I needed more pulling power for the hills in Montana while I'm pulling a horse trailer. The 2000 truck has 117,000 miles on it and I believe it has the infamous piston slap problem. I don't think it will last as long as the '83. It just infuriates me that GM, after all the years they've been building trucks and engines, that they can't even get the piston to wall clearance right in an engine. But, as I've said, this problem isn't just GM, it's the thinking of most all manufacturing,,,, even individual people. Every time I make something, I'm trying as hard as I can to make it perfect. I've never made "perfect", but my last saddle was as close as you can come, I think. I just wish all the manufacturers of the world would get back to trying to be more perfect than worrying about their bottom line. I think they can still make decent money while producing a really good product. Yeah, I know. Wishful thinking.

[catskin]

Iranger where it seemed you were dissing new machines was where you say so many have trouble with new machines. This is most likely because so many new machines are sold to people new to sewing that do not understand the simple basic way a sewing machine works. They ARE simple machines to those who can grasp the principle. Just as I said about my NOT grasping computer systems. Just bring some guy that has NEVER driven a truck and put him in one of yours, be it the old 80's one or the new one he will have as much trouble with one as the other. Most of the older machines are owned by people that have been sewing for years. So for that reason you hear less about the trouble they have since they know how to fix it .

[Tramps Leatherworking]

As i stated in an earlier post, we all have our opinions and experiences with these machines, but the fact that I have two machines that are 90+ years old --- that have not been rebuilt --- and are still sewing like a champ, is quite impressive and a testament to the quality and craftsmanship that went into building these old machines... I have done nothing mechanical to these machines but keep them oiled...