Do These Parts Do What I Assume?

[TwinOaks]

Just stick (no pun intended) with it. It's normal to have some snags and be a little apprehensive when you first start out. If you stay with it, and keep using it, six months to a year from now, you'll plop down in front of the machine, run a test strip, adjust as needed and then sew up a few things without thinking about it. Remember when you first started driving a car? You checked every little thing; now you just get in and go. It'll be the same with your sewing machine.

[Wizcrafts]

Cleanview;

Make sure you stock multiple sizes of needle for your machine. Use #23 leather point with #138 thread. Use a #24 with #207 and a #25 with #277 thread.

Using the smallest needle that allows the thread to feed smoothly also produces a tighter stitch. Conversely, if you have trouble bring the knots up into the leather, one size larger needle pokes a wider hole and the knots have less competition from the leather itself.

FYI: Generally speaking, there are no leather point needles for the 441 clones under size 23. That's not to say nobody produces them. They are just not commonly stocked by dealers. That means that you will have to use regular "round/sharp" point needles for sizes 22 and under, to sew with thread sizes under 138. They produce more friction inside leather and lay a slightly different stitch line.

[Red Cent]

No matter where the presser foot is up or down, my discs separate almost imperceptibly. Cleanview's discs are awkwardly and unevenly separated wayyyyy too much. You could not make mine do that. However, looks like it sewing pretty decent.

Just got back to the site. Cleanview, you can always count on these folks.

[cleanview]

THANKS for the encouraging words

[cleanview]

I'm saying relieve the downward pressure on the walking foot. The indicator is the 'track' or indentions left by the foot.

The reason the thread doesn't pull up as tightly through the grain side is that the grain side is stronger and more dense than the flesh side. This is just a tension adjustment - make an 1/8th turn (at a time) tighter on the primary tensioner to pull the knot a little higher.

The right hand pic also shows 'too much pressure' on the walking foot....the leather is pushed out a little bit. That's where the pressure from the top pushed the leather down into the slot plate a little bit. Even though the marks are there you can roll or hammer them out- a light spray of water, and even pressure (rolling or modelling spoon) or light taps with a smooth faced hammer.

The reason that sewing (2) 2oz pieces looks bad is that it's too thin to be sewing with that machine....in it's current settings. Most leather workers that go to a powered machine end up with at least 2, often 3 machines. This is because it's more time efficient to have one machine for thinner leathers and one for the thick stuff than it is to make all the adjustments to have one machine sewing everything. [all you Adler owners can just hush] It's fairly easy to change needles and threads, and in many cases the thread tensions will stay relative, but you still need to adjust foot pressures, foot lift height, stitch length, etc. Not a LOT of adjustments, mind you, but some - think of it as 'fine tuning' the machine to the project. If you sew the majority of things in the same thickness range you can find a happy medium...but getting out of that range means adjustment. In the example above, your machine is barely pulling the stitches inside of piece of 8oz leather. You'd need to increase tension to lift the thread to ~1/8th" to be in the center of the two pieces...with 2oz leather, you're 'target zone' is 1/32nd...and in that size you're talking about a 'target zone' of 2 or 3 thread thicknesses. This is why most of the time, lighter leather is sewn with smaller thread. It also just looks better.

Make a mark on the thread tensioner nuts so that you have an index point....then start playing with scraps. You may be surprised to see how much difference a 1/4 or even 1/8th turn on the tension nut makes. Incidentally.....try sewing some 2 oz stuff with the way it's sitting - it might work well considering how low the knot is. Now, record the settings on a little note pad....ex. 8oz total thicknes... Tensioner 1 - 3 threads showing, index at 11:00, T2 3 threads showing index at 9:00. Do that with a couple of different ranges and you'll have your starting points. And if you can, always sew a test strip first, so you can make any fine adjustments to that specific thickness.

Well, I thought I was adjusting what I was supposed to but in the past 4 hours I have not been able to get it right. Per the instructions in the picture I adjusted the walking foot to have less pressure. and every since its like the tension adjusters dont do what they are supposed to. I have backed them off to nothing and tightened them one turn at a time and sewing and the stupid not will not come into the leather and I get sporadic loose stitches on the top (I have never gotten those) I just started taking holster orders and have six that need stitching. I was convinced I would figure it out and have adjusted the tensions so many times and cant seem to get any where.

Perplexed in Amarillo

[Evo160K]

Cleanview,

Take what I'm saying with a grain of salt, because I don't sew much. If you're trying to relieve the downward pressure on the foot by following those particular printed instruction, I don't believe that's how to do it. Others will know. I believe there's a different adjustment for pressure on the foot. You'll be well informed once you get past this episode.

[pcox]

Put that walking foot adjustment in the center of the slot and leave it alone for now. Tighten your tensions back to where they were . The presser foot pressure is adjusted on the very top of the machine. It is the black knurled nut that is around the shaft sticking up on the top left hand end, counter clockwise will lower the pressure.

[TwinOaks]

Look at the positive side of all this.....by the time you're done, you'll know this machine inside and out.

[cleanview]

oh, A glass is half full kind of guy.....I am going to know this machine better than my wife before its over, well there both easy to mis understand anyways.

I do know where the pressure to the foot is adjusted.....it was that it was referred to as the center of the foot, and when I looked at it the center of the foot it was the walking foot. and down that dark path I went......it was a very dark path

I have put it in the center ....heck I had that thing in every imaginable position ....then I remembered all those pics I took of it in this thread and think I have it back where it goes........just something aint write......keep getting loose threads.

Well i woke up early to go hand stitch, but instead I will get back to the drawing board

Edited December 16, 2014 by cleanview

[cleanview]

This mornings sewing after adjusting

Still not sucking the knot in far enough.

Thoughts

Longs thread, (forum) really appreciate it

[JLSleather]

That looks like a tight hole, at a glance.

Always always always start with the simplest 'fix'. Not 'sucking the knot' enough means...

1.) Hole too small for the thread size

2.) Too much bobbin tension

3.) Insufficient top thread tension

First check the obvious...

277 thread? Then we should have a 24 or 25 needle. Hole size, check. (For 277/207 combo I like the 24 needle, for 277/277, I use the 25).

With a tension issue, don't auto assume you need to start compressing springs and moving dials. Is there something in the path of the thread binding or dragging (creating tension NOT related to a setting). Is the thread coming off the spool smoothly (this seems obvious, but really). Pull the bobbin thread with a thumb and finger.. can you pull thread smoothly? Is the bobbin in the machine so that thread spools off the bobbin the right direction? This seems like no big issue, but it really can make a difference.

Your bottom stitches look fairly consistent. They're consistently too low, but consistent. Point is, if there was something binding the thread, usually there's a more erratic look to it. Probably not the issue here, but I'd still check that (takes seconds).

How to fix this issue, this time -- first GUESS, I'd try one size larger needle.

[cleanview]

very interesting. i was under the allusion that The smallest hole the better, but what you says makes perfect sense.

that pic is 207 thread in a 23 needle. I will put in a 24 without changing anything else and see what it does.

Can you explain by what you mean when you say the bottom stitches are low? I would think that means the knot but would like to be sure.

[JLSleather]

As a rule, I like to use the smallest hole I can get away with. And I generally would use the 23 with 207 just like you said. Still, not all threads are the same, etc. Since that's such a simple fix, I'd start right there. I mean, if you get too big a hole, and the issue isn't fixed, it's simple to put the other needle back.

And yes, 'low' meant the knots. If you've verified it's not the needle / thread size combination, and the thread pulls smoothly from the bobbin, THEN you can turn up the top tension a bit.

You already know to make sure that there's nothing keeping the feet from coming all the way down (lever up, chain binding, etc). Point was, don't assume the worst.. it sometimes is pretty simple. I've ran the bobbin right out of thread.. top tension ALL out of whack when that happens.

[cleanview]

Well no pics tonight, but do believe I have made some progress in setting it up and have to admit I am not sure if I will have the never to change it for the next thin holster I do. I guess I can just count and record and "in theory" put it right back when needed.

One last question......In all this I have learned a lot and have figured out a bunch through what you all have told me and observation, but for the life of me I can not see how the second tension disc (counting from the spoor of thread forwards) has any affect on the tension. The nut tightens the spring but it seems to have zero affect on the tension off of the disc. I dont think that the disk spins (it does not clasp the thread like the first one does). It looks like its there to tinker with when you just feel the need to tinker with something.

Well, some one will tell me or in some not to distant future it will become apparent.

Thanks once again

[Wizcrafts]

Think of the bottom roller as a kind of momentum brake. The stroke of a 441 machine is very long and quite violent at at the moment the take-up changes direction. Without some type of damping, the top thread could develop slack fro shock in the wrong places resulting in unpredictable thread binding hassles.

As the thickness of the thread increases, the affect that the bottom roller has increases. It can add to the overall top tension due to friction between adjoining windings.

The bottom roller disks also maintain a smooth flow to the check spring.

[cleanview]

ok thank you

[cdthayer]

One thing that hasn’t been mentioned is overloading the bobbin with thread. I finally figured out that I was doing that to myself. It’s natural to try getting as much thread on the bobbin as possible to avoid running out of thread or having to load the bobbin more often. But too much thread on the bobbin can cause binding when the thread pays off of the bobbin, and can create havoc with normally balanced thread tension.

Overloaded bobbin means that the thread layers extend out past the rims of the bobbin. I’ve gotten to the point that I make sure they even stop short of being even with the rims, just to make sure the thread won’t contact the bobbin case when the bobbin turns.

I don’t know if this could be any of your problem, but if you’ve got a freshly wound bobbin in and suspect it could be contributing to the problem, simply pull a couple of feet of the bobbin thread out, cut it off, and try sewing again.

CD in Oklahoma

[shoepatcher]

cdthayer,

That is correct. Most bobbins on industrial sewing machines should be filled only about 85% of capacity. That is what I have read from a lot of manufacturers over the years. By only filling a bobbin to that amount, you are less likely to overfill the bobbin and cause any tension issues in the bobbin case.

glenn

[cleanview]

cool