Something I haven't seen before -- how to clean it up?

[llucas]

I just stitched my first belt for a client using my recently repaired Adler 205-374. English bridle on the face, natural veg tan on the back. I also just switched to Barge cement. When I used Weldwood I always used two coats, so I did the same thing with Barge. It took longer to dry and was obviously thicker. But, it worked great when the belt straps were bonded together. However, when I started stitching the belt on the sewing machine, I noticed tiny little yellowish/white-ish debris forming around many of the stitches as the needle lifted. I checked the thread path (it is new thread) to see if there was excess thread lube (nope) and for a few minutes assumed that waxy lube was buffing off in tiny balls and that I could brush away when I was finished stitching the belt. Nope. It was little tiny bits of Barge coming up with the needle and stitches. None on the bottom; only on the top. Learned a valuable lesson: only one coat of Barge on each piece to be joined, not two. Most of it brushed off, but some is left. Anyone dealt with this before? I am assuming I can pick up a gum rubber eraser and use an edge on the stitch line to remove the remaining cement, but not sure. How have you handled cleaning up this kind of thing?

This is not a good photo, but you can see the Barge on the stitches: little white bits.

Edited April 22, 2016 by llucas

[llucas]

Have any of you used this kind of thing to deal with this kind of problem?

 

http://www.amazon.com/Rubber-Eraser-Adhesive-Caoutchouc-Leathercraft/dp/B00MSW02GK/ref=sr_1_14?s=arts-crafts&ie=UTF8&qid=1461293637&sr=1-14&keywords=rubber+cement+eraser

Edited April 22, 2016 by llucas

[Wizcrafts]

If you buy them, let us know how these erasers work out.

[llucas]

This is supposed to go to the client tomorrow evening, so I will be at Hobby Lobby, Michael's, or some art supply in the morning to pick up a crepe rubber cement eraser to try out. I'll let you know if it works. Hopefully, someone on the forum has some experience with this kind of thing and can offer advice.

 

[Thor]

While in town pick up one of these as well http://www.amazon.com/Mr-Clean-Eraser-Cleaner-Cleaning/dp/B004D42H5K I'm using them for a lot of tasks and they aren't as harsh as the rubber stuff. Just thinking of your thread...

[Colt W Knight]

I just use a rubber pencil eraser.

 

[OLDNSLOW]

I bought the one from Tandy and have used it the leather but not the thread, and it worked fine.  How long did you let it dry before you sewed the belt?  I often apply barges to both surfaces and then stick them together but I also let the item set for a couple of days if I can before sewing.

[llucas]

23 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

If you buy them, let us know how these erasers work out.

Unfortunately, none of the art supply places had the crepe rubber erasers. I bought several other options, but none of them worked well. Tandy and Campbell-Randel have them and I will order one as I have another of these belts to stitch.

 

20 hours ago, Thor said:

While in town pick up one of these as well http://www.amazon.com/Mr-Clean-Eraser-Cleaner-Cleaning/dp/B004D42H5K I'm using them for a lot of tasks and they aren't as harsh as the rubber stuff. Just thinking of your thread...

I appreciate this suggestion and my wife had one, so I tried it. It was too abrasive for this leather and did not remove any of the cement.

[llucas]

3 hours ago, Colt W Knight said:

I just use a rubber pencil eraser.

 

I tried this one also. No go. It seems Barge (and probably Weldwood or rubber cement) needs an eraser that is made of the same substance as the cement itself.

[llucas]

2 hours ago, OLDNSLOW said:

I bought the one from Tandy and have used it the leather but not the thread, and it worked fine.  How long did you let it dry before you sewed the belt?  I often apply barges to both surfaces and then stick them together but I also let the item set for a couple of days if I can before sewing.

I dried it for an hour before bonding, and used a hair dryer set on heat to speed it up a bit. The belt cured for 24 hours after bonding. I guess I used too much Barge to cure in that time. Learned a hard lesson. I did check the Tandy website as you noted and they do indeed have the crepe rubber eraser. I will pick one up as I have another belt to stitch that was glued up the same way at the same time. Thanks for the heads-up.

[llucas]

What I did was use a splinter tweezer (pointed on the end) to pull away the most obvious mini globs. I had a sample of the glue-up that I used to test the finish for the English bridle. I simply buffed the leather and then used Kiwi neutral wax shoe polish. I noticed that this sample -- which also had the pulled up glue problem since it was the cutoff from the belt -- looked much better after waxing and polishing. So I did the best I could with the tweezer; waxed it with neutral polish and brushed it out and polished it. Looked MUCH better and the client loved it. Problem solved (sort of). I have another belt done this way that I need to stitch and I will have the crepe rubber eraser from Tandy on hand at that point. If the same issue surfaces and is solved by the eraser I will post it here. Thanks for all the suggestions.

Edited April 23, 2016 by llucas

[Northmount]

Here is something that works with some contact cements.  Pour out some contact cement on wax paper or something you will be able to peel it off or and let it set.  Wad it up and press it repeatedly against the cement you want to pick up until it lifts it off.  As the surface gets dirty or less tacky, knead it some to bring new material to the surface and keep going.  Works similarly to using a wad of tape to remove sticky tape residue.

Tom

 

[llucas]

53 minutes ago, northmount said:

Here is something that works with some contact cements.  Pour out some contact cement on wax paper or something you will be able to peel it off or and let it set.  Wad it up and press it repeatedly against the cement you want to pick up until it lifts it off.  As the surface gets dirty or less tacky, knead it some to bring new material to the surface and keep going.  Works similarly to using a wad of tape to remove sticky tape residue.

Tom

 

Great idea! Thanks.

[llucas]

I sewed the second belt where there were two coats of Barge cement. Much better, since there were a few more days of dry time. A little cement was pulled up by the needle and stitches, but not much. The excess cement that was pulled up was easily cleaned off. Lesson? One coat of Barge on each surface.

Edited May 5, 2016 by llucas

[RockyAussie]

Toms answer does work pretty well but I always allow a day or two before I stitch my belts as the speed is often fast and the heat on the needle activates the contact and sticks to the needle which can even lead to missing stitches. As I mostly only work with expensive crocodile leather and if I am in a hurry I prefer to give the belts an initial polish which acts to lubricate the needle and stops the glue lifting and missing stitch problem as well. Hope that helps and better luck in the future.

Regards Brian

[MADMAX22]

Have you thought of using some super 77 instead of barge or similar? When I do belts since they are flat I will lay them out and spray both the liner and body at the same time, they go together in a few minutes after spraying and no issues with glue coming out anywhere. I still use weldwood for things that require precise glueing of portions of the work but use the spray where I can. 

[JMWendt]

I've found the best contact cement is Duall 88.  Great stuff.  Much less expensive than anything else as well.  And it can be thinned.  I've never had it delaminate.  It's easy to work with, pliable, dries very rapidly, and is clear, not yellow.  It can easily be removed from the outside of most leathers by rubbing.  The thinner removes it as well.

Check out http://www.jlsmithco.com/s.nl/sc.13/category./.f?search=duall for the cement itself and the thinner.

It comes with a brush in the can, which is great for most applications.  I also use artist spatulas to apply this glue (and other glues).  See http://www.amazon.com/Anself-Stainless-Palette-Scraper-Painting/dp/B014W9B6ES?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage for these.  They're extremely handy for spreading a micro-thin glue layer evenly across an large or long surface, and they clean up by wiping with a rag.

 

The Duall 88 is heady stuff.  Use adequate ventilation.

 

 

[machinehead]

You've received a lot of great advice here, and mine is just a variation on what's already been stated. When I was doing shoe repair, build ups, and foot orthotics we would keep a piece or two of the natural crepe rubber in our aprons for adhesive removal. If you have a shoe repair shop close by you might score a chunk. Tell them what you need it for and they will know what you are talking about. We also used the old style Teflon lined glue pots and you had to stay ahead of cleaning the glue off the outside. We would ball up some of this residue and use it for an " eraser".

  I also agree with everything JMWendt says about the Duall 88

[llucas]

Thanks for all the replies. Very helpful. I switched to Barge based on reviews on this forum. I used Weldwood before, but the last time I used it a belt delaminated in a few places. So, I changed product. If I continue to have problems with Barge I will definitely try the Duall 88. Thanks everyone.

And I will be pouring a little of the Barge onto wax paper to form an "eraser". Thanks again.

Edited May 13, 2016 by llucas

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

When applying the glue, I try to keep it out of the stitch line area on projects where I anticipate this could be a problem. Also, as you have discovered, it takes less Barges to do the job than some other glues.

[llucas]

On May 13, 2016 at 8:58 AM, Big Sioux Saddlery said:

When applying the glue, I try to keep it out of the stitch line area on projects where I anticipate this could be a problem. Also, as you have discovered, it takes less Barges to do the job than some other glues.

Unfortunately, I need a tight seam on the belts with no separation of any kind. But this sounds like a good idea for some other projects.

 

[llucas]

And . . . it happened again! I put together a belt using 8 oz. English bridle with a 2/3 oz. natural veg tan liner. I stirred the can and applied one thin coat of Barge on each piece, gave it an hour to set up, and joined the pieces. I rolled the piece with a j-roller and set it aside for two full days to cure. Then, I turned on the Beast (Adler 205-374) and proceeded to stitch it. It pulled up cement on the stitches that could not be removed with a dried glob of Barge. Not as bad as the first belt, but still unacceptable. Even worse, the needle lifted the work piece up three times (I assume due to the cement gripping the needle) and created a longer stitch in those places. If this is normal for Barge, it is now time to throw it in the trash and use another cement. Weldwood failed (at least the can I used failed -- but only on one belt) and now Barge even more so. Is Duall 88 really better? I need a solution quick as this is getting expensive trying to fill orders for customers. I can't let these blemished belts out the door. Any of you other belt and holster makers had to deal with this issue?

Heading to the local leather supply tomorrow as they have a crepe rubber eraser in stock.

Edited May 19, 2016 by llucas

[RockyAussie]

Hi llucas

Sorry to see your still having problems. I mostly don't use a lot of the veg leathers like English bridle but it occurred to me that that these leathers are a lot more oiled than I am used to and contact glue can stay quite tacky for ages.Do you have thinners for the barge? Like Madmaxx22 I also spray and usually I have to thin the glue by about 1/3 thinners to be able to spray it. Some veg jobs that in the past I have had to repair are still sticky after years. The thread I use is a polyamide multifilament called strongbond and is perhaps worth a try. It is good to burn off the ends and is very strong and long lasting. If your leather is waxy or greasy your crepe will only be good for 1 or 2 wipes. If all else fails get some silicone spray and give the belt a very light coat before stitching. (crepe will not work at all then) Best wishes

Brian F

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

I don't think I've ever had the problem you're having, with the glue coming back up through the holes and I use Barges exclusively. On occasion, and only very rarely, I'll have the "sticking to the needle and lifting the work" problem, and I'm normally not all that careful about keeping the glue out of the stitch line like I advised you to do. Puzzling. . . .When sewing something with a lot of wax in it, like harness leather, I'll end up with lots of wax bits in the stitch line. They usually just wipe right off.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Big Sioux Saddlery

[llucas]

15 hours ago, RockyAussie said:

Hi llucas

Sorry to see your still having problems. I mostly don't use a lot of the veg leathers like English bridle but it occurred to me that that these leathers are a lot more oiled than I am used to and contact glue can stay quite tacky for ages.Do you have thinners for the barge? Like Madmaxx22 I also spray and usually I have to thin the glue by about 1/3 thinners to be able to spray it. Some veg jobs that in the past I have had to repair are still sticky after years. The thread I use is a polyamide multifilament called strongbond and is perhaps worth a try. It is good to burn off the ends and is very strong and long lasting. If your leather is waxy or greasy your crepe will only be good for 1 or 2 wipes. If all else fails get some silicone spray and give the belt a very light coat before stitching. (crepe will not work at all then) Best wishes

Brian F

Brian, thanks for the suggestions. Yes, the Barge seems to be quite a bit thicker than the Weldwood I was previously using. I'll try to thin it down and see if that helps. Do you happen to know what the solvent is for thinning? The English bridle is indeed a little waxy and as I understand it it also has tallows in it. That may be part of the problem. This is only my third attempt at using the English bridle for belts and Barge is also a new item for me. The English bridle looks fantastic -- if I can get beyond this glue issue. After reading your post I thought of a contamination solution from woodworking: using shellac as a sealer. I may try that on a scrap and see if it makes a difference. I did wax the leather before stitching (kiwi neutral shoe wax) but the silicone might be better. 

In many ways hand stitching was easier, if also very slow.