"Make America Great Again" and the leather trade

[JLSleather]

Uhh.. yeah, that's what I said.  People came to this country from .. a lot of places.  "Settled" on teh land of others, which they decided constituted ownership.  Other words, these "founding fathers' decided that since they can't take it back from us, that makes it ours (no change there in a couple hundred years).  And they had children, and called them "US citizens".  ANd wrote laws, stating that anyone born here was AUTO a US citizen.  Now, people move here, claim some ground, and have babies.  The babies are US citizens by constitutional law.  So, the problem then?  

4 minutes ago, TinkerTailor said:

Yeah, but to be a man and vote you had to have a deed for land,

By statute.  Written by those who want it that way.  Not rocket science there...

Note that the country was "founded" because where these people came from they were NOT the ones "in power" and writing the rules.  They couldn't "take back" land (or rights) which were taken from them, so tehy moved here and did the same thing to others.  Not seeing the "great" just yet ...

 

 

Edited November 11, 2016 by JLSleather

[LumpenDoodle2]

You know there is a real problem with a society, when a prized possession, is a $250,000 diamond encrusted gold smart phone cover.

An unartistic, tasteless piece of expensive tat, for a mobile phone that was probibly out of fashion a month after the cover was bought.

Wrong priorities being taught.

[JLSleather]

5 minutes ago, LumpenDoodle2 said:

out of fashion a month after

Now you're getting to the heart of the issue.  "Out of fashion" is dependent on what someone ELSE thinks... not the user's own opinion.  In fact, many (I personally think MOST) people in this country (not JUST this one) don't even HAVE an opinion or a "style" of their own --- just do what the other guy is doing so I won't get any 'bad press'.  Puppets, who do things without knowing why they do them.  My wife still has a bit of that, though nothing like in teh past.  If you do things simply because "that's the way we always did it", your life is not YOURS.

Just food for thought...

Plus, I had to get on the computer and order some replacement tools.  Plus, I have no "boss" who I'm cheating out of a day's work. And plus, I've already done more this morning than some will "do" (accomplish) all week

 

[TinkerTailor]

On 11/9/2016 at 9:10 AM, TinkerTailor said:

I question, How can America make itself great again without starting from the ground up? In Tuscany there are water treatment plants built just to treat the effluent from tanneries. This is smart planning. Planning from the ground up. There are dozens of tanneries within a few hundred miles making some of the best leather in the world with basically zero pollution. None of this infrastructure exists in USA unless it is owned by the tannery. This keeps out the small guys.

If all the machines to make stuff have been sold for scrap or shipped overseas long ago, and the skills and techniques to utilize the machines have been lost to time, Where do you start? The vast track of trees to tan leather are gone....The foundries dismantled....The rail lines to them sold for condos....The agricultural land has been sold for residential. The water is used up for lawns......Going to be a long hard road.

Ok, to get it back on track: The hard facts of the above are:

-A great deal of money is needed to rebuild American manufacturing and self sufficiency. If china turns off the tap for a while, USA is screwed...They have more than enough cash reserves to stop trade for a few years.....

-Labor aside, who will pay for it? There are only two places it can come from, the people or the corporations. The only logical way to spread out the cost on the people is evenly, hence a tax. Thus you need a governmental body representing the people to take their money and spend it on water plants. Personal taxes, lots of them. The other way is to force the company to do it which takes money out of the bottom line. Prices go up and wages stay the same due to these corporate taxes (the only way to force them), or they leave the USA and manufacture elsewhere. This has been the case for a while since the 80's. Pick one.

- It is not just a matter of getting the machines back, whole systems need to be changed ie: factory farming using fossil fuel fertilizer to grow food.

- 133 billion pounds and $161 billion worth of food wasted in the USA in 2010.......this is a HUGE issue.

- A great deal of the rights for the natural resources in the USA are owned by other countries, largely china. Do you take them back? See the first point..

 

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

2 hours ago, TinkerTailor said:

A big part of the solution is to stop finding ways to make money off each other so we can have bigger jetskis than each other and go back to helping each other succeed. This still exists in rural areas but is gone in cities. This is a huge part of what made America great....Community and Values..

Umm, actually that's pretty well near gone in MY rural area too.  Big farmers competing against other big farmers to get bigger and will use any means to do it.   I'm in the southeastern part of the state and we USED to be pretty rural. We are close enough (ten miles) to what is for us, a city, 180,000 people I think (?).  A majority of the people that live within 50 miles of this "city" work in said city. They did not grow up here, and they do not have the same rural values that were present when I grew up. And it's not just them, it is a lot of the  "real" rural  people also.  When I grew up, I thought farmers were the most down to earth, honest, good, hard working people in the world.  I think my grandpa's generation, that was true. Now (and I may get me ass blasted for this) I think farmers are some of the most greedy, whiney, self-centered, hypocritical welfare recipients the country has ever seen.  What changed?  I think it's the third generation thing someone mentioned above, coupled with an out-of-date farm program that helps the rich become richer and pays people for NOT farming their ground.  And as far as the "illegals", I agree with you JLS.  Those people show up for work and do the job they're paid to do, and would rather be working than have some vacation time.  A young Hispanic man came to my shop a couple years ago. I have to admit, I was a little leery.  I visited with him a little bit and any preconceived notions I had flew out the window. It was refreshing to listen to him!!  He was on vacation that week, and works for a large dairy about 20 miles away from me. He gets one week off a year. The rest of the time I think he works 7 days a week, but Sunday is a "short day", only 4 hours. Married, with several kids, he was born in Mexico and his family moved to Chicago when he was very young. He was in a lot of trouble as a teenager. His parents shipped him off to South Dakota to some relatives, who ended up kicking him out of the house.  Long story short, the kid turned his life around.  I asked him what his goal in life was. He said, "just to be happy with what I have, and watch my kids and grandkids grow up."  That conversation with that young man left a lasting impression on me.  A lot of "our" youth could take a good lesson from him.

[MADMAX22]

 

Big Sioux and JLS that is one side of the immigration story. I use to work with alot of them when I was a teenager doing construction. The problem stems from the other half, ones that come up here to setup grow areas and meth houses in the mountains or mule the drugs up here or trying to get government hand outs and what not. 

Agree about the farming issue as well, once it was controlled by the government and they got use to the income they received well it only takes a generation of feeding birds every year to get them coming back to the same spot to get more hand outs. 

 

[AngieNZ]

yup

[bikermutt07]

Ok. I'm going to have to chime in on the illegal alien issue. Because there is an issue that has been overlooked for pretty much my entire working career.

Now I understand and agree with everyone's input about lazier and lazier generations of Americans that think they are only supposed to be paid because they were gracious enough to show up. I get it, I've seen it, I've paid for it.

This is a different note. What never gets addressed is skilled trades. Craftsmen who put their time in to learn a trade. Spent years learning how to construct something with pride, not because of what you're paid, but because you want to do it right. They way you were taught. Because, because your name is on it and you are proud of it.

I grew up and live in the south. I have worked skilled labor in one form or another in the last 23 years. I have worked hand in hand with illegal aliens.

I want you to grasp this from someone with first hand experience. Yes, illegal aliens will work hard. You get enough of them in one place long enough and you see a trend. I experienced this in my early twenties. I was the only white guy working on a crew of about twelve in a steel mill shut down. My foreman was a Mexican american. He was friends with my older brother and I wanted to make sure I impressed him. I busted tail every night (7-12s). I had to keep up with the Mexicans. After the first week I realized, these guys were taking turns working hard. 6 of them would hide and the other 6 were getting the job done. The next night? They switched. Over and over every night and I had to keep up with all of them or I'd be the lazy white boy. I kept up. 

I have seen large groups of them make demands on cost plus jobs to get their way or they were all leaving. Nothing will make a project manager fold faster than 30 hands (probably billing a 150 a man per hour) leaving at once.

I got sidetracked with those two examples. In all my time I have seen very few illegal aliens who actually brought talent, pride, and craftsmanship to the table. They slap stuff together and call it done. Trust me I have had to fix so many things in punchlists do to illegal aliens.

Now to my real point. You can't compete with "skilled" labor prices of illegal aliens. Why? Because they all live together. They will have 3-5 families living in one rent house splitting bills and all working at the same place. I have measured houses for flooring for landlords before. I was led to each bedroom where a different keyed padlock was removed so I could measure.

You add all that on top of not paying taxes, sharing the same vehicle, and receiving benefits no one in America can compete.

Now for the real point. Now you may see what the problem is......

In 1981, my dad was a commercial carpenter making $19.00 an hour. That was good money back then. He was a decent carpenter. I'm gonna toot my own horn and say I'm a really good carpenter. 

35 years later and I have never made 19.00 an hour as a carpenter. Never.

Skilled trades in the south, at least, haven't had a raise in 35 years. Is this making sense now?

It's not just minimum wage jobs they are just taking from lazy slobs at the burger joint. They have their own little private union and they take jobs from skilled craftsmen, because they the have numbers to fill the slots. 

This is why a lot of people have problems with illegal aliens. This is the problem you never hear about. 

Now as for a little perspective. One of my best friends in grade school was an illegal alien. My ex-wife is a west Texas Mexican. My firstborn son is half texmex. And yes I have worked with some illegals that have talent. I don't hate anyone, I just want the problem addressed and understood.

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

1 hour ago, bikermutt07 said:

Ok. I'm going to have to chime in on the illegal alien issue. Because there is an issue that has been overlooked for pretty much my entire working career.

Now I understand and agree with everyone's input about lazier and lazier generations of Americans that think they are only supposed to be paid because they were gracious enough to show up. I get it, I've seen it, I've paid for it.

This is a different note. What never gets addressed is skilled trades. Craftsmen who put their time in to learn a trade. Spent years learning how to construct something with pride, not because of what you're paid, but because you want to do it right. They way you were taught. Because, because your name is on it and you are proud of it.

I grew up and live in the south. I have worked skilled labor in one form or another in the last 23 years. I have worked hand in hand with illegal aliens.

I want you to grasp this from someone with first hand experience. Yes, illegal aliens will work hard. You get enough of them in one place long enough and you see a trend. I experienced this in my early twenties. I was the only white guy working on a crew of about twelve in a steel mill shut down. My foreman was a Mexican american. He was friends with my older brother and I wanted to make sure I impressed him. I busted tail every night (7-12s). I had to keep up with the Mexicans. After the first week I realized, these guys were taking turns working hard. 6 of them would hide and the other 6 were getting the job done. The next night? They switched. Over and over every night and I had to keep up with all of them or I'd be the lazy white boy. I kept up. 

I have seen large groups of them make demands on cost plus jobs to get their way or they were all leaving. Nothing will make a project manager fold faster than 30 hands (probably billing a 150 a man per hour) leaving at once.

I got sidetracked with those two examples. In all my time I have seen very few illegal aliens who actually brought talent, pride, and craftsmanship to the table. They slap stuff together and call it done. Trust me I have had to fix so many things in punchlists do to illegal aliens.

Now to my real point. You can't compete with "skilled" labor prices of illegal aliens. Why? Because they all live together. They will have 3-5 families living in one rent house splitting bills and all working at the same place. I have measured houses for flooring for landlords before. I was led to each bedroom where a different keyed padlock was removed so I could measure.

You add all that on top of not paying taxes, sharing the same vehicle, and receiving benefits no one in America can compete.

Now for the real point. Now you may see what the problem is......

In 1981, my dad was a commercial carpenter making $19.00 an hour. That was good money back then. He was a decent carpenter. I'm gonna toot my own horn and say I'm a really good carpenter. 

35 years later and I have never made 19.00 an hour as a carpenter. Never.

Skilled trades in the south, at least, haven't had a raise in 35 years. Is this making sense now?

It's not just minimum wage jobs they are just taking from lazy slobs at the burger joint. They have their own little private union and they take jobs from skilled craftsmen, because they the have numbers to fill the slots. 

This is why a lot of people have problems with illegal aliens. This is the problem you never hear about. 

Now as for a little perspective. One of my best friends in grade school was an illegal alien. My ex-wife is a west Texas Mexican. My firstborn son is half texmex. And yes I have worked with some illegals that have talent. I don't hate anyone, I just want the problem addressed and understood.

Well that certainly is another side to the story, and thank you for sharing it with us.  And I'm not being sarcastic, I really mean it.  Honestly, it sounds a lot like the Amish.  Talented and experienced "English" (their name for anyone white who isn't an Amish person) leather craftsmen typically do not have a lot of respect for the Amish. I can't imagine other trades are much different.  They contribute very little to "our" system or society, while working cheaper than any of us can even hope to, and sell their (oftentimes) second rate products on "Amish Craftsmanship".  Some of the sloppiest work I've ever seen has been Amish work, and that goes for leatherwork, carpentry, concrete work, masonry,  etc, etc. Not a hard and fast rule, but pretty common.  The bad thing is that they can work so cheaply, that it instills the idea in the minds of prospective buyers that everyone should be able to work that cheaply, and because that "Amish Craftsmanship" is so firmly entrenched in the publics mind, they have no idea that in many cases the raw materials they use are junk. The solution: I'll never, ever beat 'em on price, but it doesn't take much to beat 'em on quality.  Those that can't tell the difference and are buying on price alone, well I decided 15 years ago that I really don't want those people as customers anyway.

I agree that the wages of some of the skilled trades have not increased at anywhere near what other industries have, medical for example.  It is a problem, or more accurately maybe just another symptom of the real problem.

[bikermutt07]

6 hours ago, Big Sioux Saddlery said:

Well that certainly is another side to the story, and thank you for sharing it with us.  And I'm not being sarcastic, I really mean it.  Honestly, it sounds a lot like the Amish.  Talented and experienced "English" (their name for anyone white who isn't an Amish person) leather craftsmen typically do not have a lot of respect for the Amish. I can't imagine other trades are much different.  They contribute very little to "our" system or society, while working cheaper than any of us can even hope to, and sell their (oftentimes) second rate products on "Amish Craftsmanship".  Some of the sloppiest work I've ever seen has been Amish work, and that goes for leatherwork, carpentry, concrete work, masonry,  etc, etc. Not a hard and fast rule, but pretty common.  The bad thing is that they can work so cheaply, that it instills the idea in the minds of prospective buyers that everyone should be able to work that cheaply, and because that "Amish Craftsmanship" is so firmly entrenched in the publics mind, they have no idea that in many cases the raw materials they use are junk. The solution: I'll never, ever beat 'em on price, but it doesn't take much to beat 'em on quality.  Those that can't tell the difference and are buying on price alone, well I decided 15 years ago that I really don't want those people as customers anyway.

I agree that the wages of some of the skilled trades have not increased at anywhere near what other industries have, medical for example.  It is a problem, or more accurately maybe just another symptom of the real problem.

Wow. Being from the south I haven't run across any Amish. So, I have always been of the mindset that they did awesome work. Thanks for the heads up.