18th Century Leather Edge Beveling

[grdwire]

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen,

After countless hours of online research I can find nothing about 18th century (1720-1780) (French and Indian/Revolutionary wars) leather being beveled and burnished.
Was leather beveled and burnished back then, or was it just cut, sewn, and that was it; no bevel / burnishing of any kind? (Bags,straps,belts,knife sheaths)
Most leather items of that period made today, show an unbeveled, unfinished edge.

Have also inquired at Reverend's Big Blog of Leather but no help, as there time frame doesn't cover the middle to late 1700's, also Williamsburg, VA no reply

I don’t want to do a project for that time period with a beveled edge, and later to my embarrassment, find this was not an embellishment of the day. Any thoughts on this is greatly appreciated.

Thanks for time and help

Regards,

[AussieMade]

I have some contacts in the Historic Reenactment Groups here in Australia that study 18th, 19th century history. I will put the question to them for you if you like?

Cheers

Damien

[AussieMade]

Quote:

My first thought is that they most certainly would have done. Sharp edges can be uncomfortable, even through a layer or two of cloth. Also, if the leather was hardened, it could have cut that cloth. Rounding an edge is so simple and takes so little time, that there would be no advantage NOT to have done it.

 

[AussieMade]

Quote

There's more than one question in here. Bags, straps, belts, and knife sheaths are all very different things, made by different trades out of different materials. 

The biggest barrier to giving an answer though is that "leather" covers a large range of materials from different animals, of thicknesses that was tanned, curried, and finished in a huge variety of ways in accordance with the intended purpose. 

Two pieces of leather made for different purposes could have almost nothing in common save that they once graced the outside of an animal. Think about leather used for gloves and leather used for the soles of shoes. Both 'leather' but utterly different in nearly every physical property you can name.

Pre-industrial leather is also a very different material from modern 'vegetable' tanned leather that's been tanned using a short process in highly concentrated solutions of tanning liquids, so you can't extrapolate backwards based on the behaviour or modern leathers.

Most modern veg tan is machine thicknessed and has a highly corrected grain surface. If bought as russet it also tends to be quite dry because it's intended to be tooled or dyed and finished by the maker.

Modern leathers don't tend to come in nearly the range of finishes etc. that pre-industrial leathers did, and pit tanned leather that's been slowly tanned over the course of 6-12 months is a physically very different material than modern veg tan. 

Of all the expertly-made 18th century shoes I've seen, none have had any evidence of rounded edges, even along the topline.

 

 

[amuckart]

9 hours ago, AussieMade said:

Quote:

My first thought is that they most certainly would have done. Sharp edges can be uncomfortable, even through a layer or two of cloth. Also, if the leather was hardened, it could have cut that cloth. Rounding an edge is so simple and takes so little time, that there would be no advantage NOT to have done it.

 

That argument doesn't hold and it's based on a bunch of unfounded assumptions. Firstly that an un-rounded edge is "sharp" which they aren't and secondly that rounding an edge is simple and fast which isn't necessarily true. It depends an awful lot on the item, what it's made from, etc. etc.

 

The comment was made on FB by someone who isn't a leatherworker, so I wouldn't give it much credence.

Edited December 10, 2016 by amuckart
Conflated two posts.

[amuckart]

Edge slicking devices do exist in 18th century contexts, for example shoemakers used them for sole finishing on some work, but that doesn't mean it was a universal practice across all crafts that used leather as a material.

Try narrowing down your search to the context of the project you want to make and then go looking for references to the tools that would have been used to do the job. 

Edited December 10, 2016 by amuckart

[amuckart]

There's more than one question in here. Bags, straps, belts, and knife sheaths are all very different things, made by different trades out of different materials. 

The biggest barrier to giving an answer though is that "leather" covers a large range of materials from different animals, of thicknesses that was tanned, curried, and finished in a huge variety of ways in accordance with the intended purpose. 

Two pieces of leather made for different purposes could have almost nothing in common save that they once graced the outside of an animal. Think about leather used for gloves and leather used for the soles of shoes. Both 'leather' but utterly different in nearly every physical property you can name.

Pre-industrial leather is also a very different material from modern 'vegetable' tanned leather that's been tanned using a short process in highly concentrated solutions of tanning liquids, so you can't extrapolate backwards based on the behaviour or modern leathers.

Most modern veg tan is machine thicknessed and has a highly corrected grain surface. If bought as russet it also tends to be quite dry because it's intended to be tooled or dyed and finished by the maker.

Modern leathers don't tend to come in nearly the range of finishes etc. that pre-industrial leathers did, and pit tanned leather that's been slowly tanned over the course of 6-12 months is a physically very different material than modern veg tan. 

Of all the expertly-made 18th century shoes I've seen, none have had any evidence of rounded edges, even along the topline.

[Fowlingpiece]

Edge shave tools begin to appear in ads during the mid 1800s. There were edge irons, and edge burnishers etc. prior as well as edged leather goods such as harness and belting, etc. It is assumed the practice of edging with a piece of glass was done prior to the edging tools we a familiar with today. Apparently there were old timers who still preferred the glass method at the time R. A. Salaman wrote Dictionary of Leather Working Tools c.1700-1950.

If one is attempting to re-create the secondary items of a professional leather worker such as a harness maker in America during your period, rounding and burnishing edges is in my opinion justified.

Look at some of Stuart Lilie's work. He has probably got as much study of original pieces in his line of work as anyone I know of.

 

 

Edited December 13, 2016 by Fowlingpiece

[TinkerTailor]

This 17th century spanish colonial chest looks like it has beveled edges. No question, with carving skills like that if they wanted to they would have.

http://www.michaelbackmanltd.com/1101.html

 

[Sceaden]

It would also very much depend on what type the history of the item your trying to replicate is. A utilitarian bag made by and for a frontiersman is a totally different ball game than an aristocrats possibles pouch. 

[Wykoni]

On 12/9/2016 at 3:32 PM, grdwire said:

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen,

After countless hours of online research I can find nothing about 18th century (1720-1780) (French and Indian/Revolutionary wars) leather being beveled and burnished.
Was leather beveled and burnished back then, or was it just cut, sewn, and that was it; no bevel / burnishing of any kind? (Bags,straps,belts,knife sheaths)
Most leather items of that period made today, show an unbeveled, unfinished edge.

Have also inquired at Reverend's Big Blog of Leather but no help, as there time frame doesn't cover the middle to late 1700's, also Williamsburg, VA no reply

I don’t want to do a project for that time period with a beveled edge, and later to my embarrassment, find this was not an embellishment of the day. Any thoughts on this is greatly appreciated.

Thanks for time and help

Regards,

I know the master leather smith at colonial Williamsburg and will asked the question.  My thought is not, they really looked at quality as very clean cutting with remarkably good sewing.  Nothing decorative.  I will ask and get back.

[chuck123wapati]

A very interesting question! The different cultures also have to be taken into consideration, Life on the "frontier" was a myriad of peoples all with their own leather working processes, Indian, French, English, etc all had different techniques for working leather. As well stature played a part rich folks got imported leather goods poor folk made their own. I always use a character model when doing era related projects, was my guy a poor French trader, if so he may have some American Indian clothing as well as French, or an English aristocrat coming to find adventure who may have all new English made attire. As for finding the answer to burnishing I think you have to narrow down what cultures leather processes you intend to copy and look at museum pieces for your answers. BUT if the info is so hard to find then who will know if your wrong and burnishing is basically doing what time does to leather , wears the edges and makes it rounder and smoother.

[Frodo]

does this look beveled or just  burnished?

 

[fredk]

An old thread, recently added to and I'll add some more. Re-reading through my old books I found some information which may be relevant.

From about 1730 to about 1820 British Army soldiers and some other European soldiers wore a special leather collar called a 'stock'. It was made of very thick stiffened leather meant to make the soldier keep his chin upwards, and by doing this he kept his back straight and did not slouch. The edges of the leather were known to be sharp, they cut the soldier's flesh under his chin, they left weals where the cuts healed.

Period advice given to the patrols sent out to find deserters was to look under the chin of any suspect for these weals and if he could not produce his discharge papers he was a deserter

Hard or semi-hard leather can have a cut edge sharp enough to cut flesh. I have often enough got a 'paper' type cut from fresh cut leather. If the edges of the stock had been bevelled they would not have cut

Afaik, Armies in the US & Canada wore the stock from about 1730 to about 1815 and again some regiments wore them in the WBTS but it was not exactly the same then but a shorter collar 'stiffener'

[chuck123wapati]

https://archive.org/stream/cuirdorhangingsi00csel?ref=ol#page/24/mode/2up?ref=ol   .  Some cool stuff here although many books on leathercraft aren't shown its a great reference on the  books out there that were written. https://openlibrary.org/search?subject=leatherwork

Edited July 8, 2020 by chuck123wapati

[chuck123wapati]

https://b-ok.cc/book/5407613/192e68

main site =https://b-ok.cc/s/leather craft

Edited July 8, 2020 by chuck123wapati

[chuck123wapati]

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/58293            this is on 18th century williamsburg

this one has some interesting info on the laws in effect for leather work.http://www.gutenberg.org/files/48588/48588-h/48588-h.htm

Edited July 8, 2020 by chuck123wapati

[chuck123wapati]

https://archive.org/details/leatherwork00wils/page/n3/mode/2up

[mike02130]

If they had edge bevellers back then I would imagine some would've used them some would not.  Just like today.  

[Wykoni]

Talked with the master leather craftsman at colonial Williamsburg.  He has studied English  18th century leatherwork and he said during this period there is little evidence of beveling or burnishing.  In my studies of this time period I have found Spanish product to be more decorated.  Even when you go to American vs Mexican holsters you find the Mexican holsters to be more decorated then American during the 19th century.  Probably why at one point Mexican  leather Was more sought after.  American in both century found more beauty in delicate stitching and fine leather finishing.    You see this if you visit either Washington’s or Jefferson’s homes in Virginia.  

[Trox]

In Dictionary of leather-working tools, c 1700-1950 and tools of allied trades by R.A. Salaman. You will see various old tools made for edges. Picture is from the book and shows plate from the "Encyclopedia of Diderot and D'Alembert, Paris c. 1760". Fig #5 shows a edge slicking tool. It proves such techniques where uses way before that book came out. There are evidence of edge finishing leather in bookbinding back in the fifteenth and sixteenth century. Not much antique foot or horse leather are preserved for us to look at. But old books are been taken care of and preserved. The above dictionary comes in to this subjects of several occasions. Edges wad weak points and where creased/ compressed and must certainly closed of when necessary way back in history.

[Sceaden]

The other thing to keep in mind is if you're trying to create an aged look. If you want to look like the item has been carried/worn for years than an inconsistent burnish with inconsistent edge dye that looks like wear patterns around arms, neck, etc would help make the whole thing feel more real as leather takes on a partial burnish from skin and skin oils.