Clicker, Have you heard of it?

[catskin]

Thank Tom,

Yes the pump likely does run continuously I can see the solenoid ( electro magnet ) that activates the valve. I understand most of electric wiring, (just not 3 phase ) I have done house wiring and have wired up 220 volt motors. What I am having trouble figuring out is this motor wired as 220 single phase or 3 phase.  I talked to and electrician   on Wednesday and he said that it could be 220 single phase or three phase by what I told him on where there is continuity ( between the black and blue wires ) and not any to the brown one. I will be taking the wiring diagram and pictures of the motor plate and connections in the motor to him and we hope to get it figured out. Even he was surprised that there was no reading between the brown and black or blue  wires. That is when he said it might be single phase.

There might also be something wrong in wiring or switches etc. Since it is still on the trailer I might take it in and have it looked at.  But truth be told I would rather not spend a bunch of money on it if I won't be able to use it.

As for the reading between wires it was right to the top the same as if I touched the ends of the leads together that come from the tester.

Edited February 25, 2017 by catskin
added more detail

[Northmount]

Where the outside plate says 220, I would say it is very likely single phase.  If it said 208, then I would say it is 3 phase.  These are standardized descriptions.  For the equipment to be sold in North America, it had to meet these standards.

A 220 VAC motor will have quite low winding resistance including the starting winding, so would approach 0 ohms.  Your multimeter should be on the lowest resistance range when you check it.  Just went out to the workshop and checked resistance on a 3 hp 220 VAC compressor motor, 1.4 ohms.  On a 1.5 hp table saw motor, it is 1.5 ohms.  You really can't tell much about the motor other than having continuity or not by measuring resistance.

A single phase 220 VAC motor will run when wired across 2 phases of a 208 VAC 3 phase system.  It is well within the voltage level tolerances.  I have seen many 220 single phase connected to 208 (unit heater fans, pumps, etc.).  However, that is not a concern here since you will not be connecting it to a 3 phase system.  Just some added info for you to digest.

Tom

[catskin]

4 hours ago, northmount said:

Where the outside plate says 220, I would say it is very likely single phase.  If it said 208, then I would say it is 3 phase.  These are standardized descriptions.  For the equipment to be sold in North America, it had to meet these standards.

A 220 VAC motor will have quite low winding resistance including the starting winding, so would approach 0 ohms.  Your multimeter should be on the lowest resistance range when you check it.  Just went out to the workshop and checked resistance on a 3 hp 220 VAC compressor motor, 1.4 ohms.  On a 1.5 hp table saw motor, it is 1.5 ohms.  You really can't tell much about the motor other than having continuity or not by measuring resistance.

A single phase 220 VAC motor will run when wired across 2 phases of a 208 VAC 3 phase system.  It is well within the voltage level tolerances.  I have seen many 220 single phase connected to 208 (unit heater fans, pumps, etc.).  However, that is not a concern here since you will not be connecting it to a 3 phase system.  Just some added info for you to digest.

Tom

Thanks Tom,

I am hoping it turns out to be 220 single phase. I am not sure how to get the right setting on my multi meter for ohms. so I may not have had it set to the right setting. I have a few other things to check out like possible broken wires going to switches. Another thing that has me confused is that it does not matter if the red or the black button ( power switch I believe is pushed ) the readings are the same. It is when I turn a dial that the reading stop showing a continuity. This dial  has a click on /off then you can turn it more like you would a variable speed or like turning heat up or down on a heater.

[HENDREFORGAN]

To my knowledge there are very few clicker press makers here in the UK, most wholesalers are now importing Italian or Chinese made units.  We're considering one of these machines and the design of unit you have hasn't been seen at all in all our searches . . never seen one with the pillar at the end.

The fact that you can have 3 phase supply in North America that is the same voltage as UK single phase really doesn't help, does it?  In the UK, and in Europe too I believe, three phase is from 380 volts up to 415 volts.

Our cable colours are as follows : UK and EU Single phase : Live is BROWN, Neutral (return) is BLUE and Earth (ground) is YELLOW/GREEN and UK and EU Three phase (2004 on) are LIVE PHASES are BROWN, BLACK and GREY, neutral (return) BLUE and earth (ground) YELLOW/GREEN.  Prior to 2004 the colours were LIVE PHASES were RED, YELLOW and BLUE, neutral (return) BLACK and earth (ground) either YELLOW/GREEN or plain GREEN.

However just because a machine was made to accept THREE PHASE power doesn't necessarily mean that, within the unit itself, those extra phases were broken down to a SINGLE PHASE for an electrical item to work.  We have a commercial steam oven we use for moulding leather which is THREE PHASE supplied yet some of it's components are SINGLE PHASE taken from an internal board.

Whether at the motor or - ideally - the clickers incoming socket  . . count the number of wires . . five or three?.

[Northmount]

Referring to the manual, the potentiometer is item 7.  It is wired in series with the end switch item 8.  So is used according to page 2 to make small adjustments in the cutting depth.  It is not part of the power cord circuit.

The nameplate item 1 on page 2 shows the voltage the machine was designed and setup for.  I assume this is the tag you were identifying in your previous posts about the voltage.

Page 2 shows a box on the right near the rear.  This appears to be the control box and I assume is where your red and black buttons are.  It would appear that there is an electromagnetic switch (relay) that starts and stops the motor.  Red is likely the on push button.  When it is pressed, it applies control power to the mag switch, closing the circuit for the motor, and seals itself in to keep the motor running.  The black switch breaks the control circuit opening the motor circuit.  The control power appears to be 24 VAC, supplied by a control power transformer.  So without any mains power being supplied, there is no connection to the motor.  The continuity you are measuring is only the primary circuit of the control power transformer.

I would recommend that you get a qualified electrician to test and install your wiring as it is beyond your scope of experience and knowledge.  And as said before, 220 is single phase.  208 is three phase.

Some photos would go a long ways toward identifying the various switches, parts and locations.

Tom

 

 

[catskin]

Well most of my questions were answered today. Though not the answers I wish they had been.  I had a electrician friend take a look at this press, and it is 220 single phase.  Neither of them could seem to understand why the plate on the outside did not show that it was 3 phase. So now I have to decide what my next move is to be. I am told phase converters are about $1800.00 which is more than I am prepared to put into it.  Here is what I am considering try to sell as is, see if there is a way of changing the motor to 220 single phase without having to rewire the whole system. Or take my lose and learn from it. Maybe the dies that came with it can be sold to recover some of what I put into it.

[Northmount]

3 hours ago, catskin said:

Well most of my questions were answered today. Though not the answers I wish they had been.  I had a electrician friend take a look at this press, and it is 220 single phase.  Neither of them could seem to understand why the plate on the outside did not show that it was 3 phase. So now I have to decide what my next move is to be. I am told phase converters are about $1800.00 which is more than I am prepared to put into it.  Here is what I am considering try to sell as is, see if there is a way of changing the motor to 220 single phase without having to rewire the whole system. Or take my lose and learn from it. Maybe the dies that came with it can be sold to recover some of what I put into it.

You state it is 220 single phase, then go on about it being 3 phase, which is it really?  And if it is 3 phase, replace the motor and do some rewiring of the control circuits.  Can still use the 3 phase contactor on single phase 220.

Tom

[catskin]

50 minutes ago, northmount said:

You state it is 220 single phase, then go on about it being 3 phase, which is it really?  And if it is 3 phase, replace the motor and do some rewiring of the control circuits.  Can still use the 3 phase contactor on single phase 220.

Tom

SORRY my mistake I was thinking one thing and typed another.! It is 220  3 phase.  I will have to have an electrician check out more of the wiring to see if it will need to be changed.  The guy here today did not have time to check all the wiring as to what voltage it uses going to other parts. from the transformer that is shown in the book.

[leathersmyth]

My experience,

 I picked up a clicker that was wired for 550 volt for the motor. I was in a place that had three phase 220. I picked up a inverter from out vancouver way, had it wired up to kick the voltage up to the needed 550. worked like a dream. Moved it to single phase 220 place and no longer could use that set up. I pulled the motor out of clicker, picked up a 220 single phase motor and installed into clicker. On mine, the 550 volt was just for the motor. inside there was a Transformer that actually took the power down to 110 volt. The only thing that was 550 was the motor, the rest of the controls, switches,etc were 110. So it runs perfect now on 220 single phase. 

 So yours Might be something similar to that. and you might get away with just swapping out the motor.....

 

[Sonydaze]

$1800 sounds like a lot for a phase converter, I would do some shopping.  Another alternative to changing the motor is to power it with a inverter, their cost is fairly reasonable.

Hitachi inverters

[catskin]

Thank you both for your advise.  I will have to do some more research it sounds like an inverter might be the right thing for me.   I have talked to 2 electricians and it neither offered any solution but a rotary phase converter at about $1800.00.  I guess I might have to talk to one who does more work with 3 phase and high voltage.  The book with the wiring diagram was supposed to be included in the deal but now she keeps telling( ITS HERE) but she can't find it. With the book it would be a lot easier to know how I can set it up.  I have found what are called STATIC  phase converters on the internet for as little as $69.00  that are for motors 3-5 hp. ( mine is 2 hp. ) but need to know for sure they are the right thing for this job.

Edited March 5, 2017 by catskin
Changed some to clarify.

[shoepatcher]

Catskin,

Been a while.  You can get a 5 horse rotary phase converter from Grizzly Tools for  995.00 plus shipping.   1-8005234777.   That should be more that plenty for your machine. Want to see pics when it is finished.

glenn

[shoepatcher]

Catskin,

I just saw the manual you got on an earlier post.  That is a Fipi side arm clicker.  Contact Manufactures supplies in Missouri.  They can help you.

glenn

[catskin]

3 hours ago, shoepatcher said:

Catskin,

I just saw the manual you got on an earlier post.  That is a Fipi side arm clicker.  Contact Manufactures supplies in Missouri.  They can help you.

glenn

Thank you for your info. I just  ( 15 minutes ago ) found that I can get rotary phase converters near here. I will go to them and see what they can supply. The good part is to deal face to face.  The price we got on the phone is $ 515.00 for 3 hp. which sounds good.  This is not a hurry up deal I am working at it as I have time.

[CowboyBob]

Rea Bogle's Grandson was going to take over.But changed his mind & I got a letter from his wife a few months ago asking if I was interested in buying the business.

[CowboyBob]

1 hour ago, catskin said:

Thank you for your info. I just  ( 15 minutes ago ) found that I can get rotary phase converters near here. I will go to them and see what they can supply. The good part is to deal face to face.  The price we got on the phone is $ 515.00 for 3 hp. which sounds good.  This is not a hurry up deal I am working at it as I have time.

If you can find an old 3-phase motor (slightly larger HP rating than your motor)that is delta wound all you need to do is wire it to 220 single phase & also wire it to your 3-phase,get a 110 volt motor & hook up a belt to this 3-phase motor get the 1 running to spin the 3-phase(convertor motor) & then turn   the 220v single on & shut the 110v starter motor off & as long as the 3-phase Is spinning it'll put out 3-phase.Usually you can find old 3-phase motors pretty cheap.I just happened to buy a trailer that had a new one in it(3HP) & used it.

It's run our Bridgeport mill for years on this 3 phase convertor I made.There is some directions on the web.It is very simple though.

[Hillbilly tim]

Check these folks out. They sell manufactures NOS and overstock inventory. They have phase convertors and offer technical advice too. I have purchased many different items from them for 20 plus years.

 

https://www.surpluscenter.com/Electrical/3-Phase-Motors/Phase-Converters/

 

Bro. Timothy

Edited March 24, 2017 by Hillbilly tim