dikman Report post Posted February 20, 2017 (edited) When I mentioned to my wife that I just saw this machine on Gumtree (local ebay) and thought I'd buy it she didn't even bat an eyelid. My daughter and son-in-law just shook their heads and sort of laughed. Bit of a worry.....Well, it was only $120 and was advertised as an industrial treadle machine. Yes, it is an industrial machine, but I was only really interested in the treadle and stand. The guy selling it buys and sells stuff and I'm guessing this came as part of a pile of stuff he bought and he just wanted to move it quickly. He didn't know anything about it and said it came as is.The machine itself looks ok, serial no. indicates 1923, no rust and everything appears to move ok. Came with a small pile of bits and pieces - assorted feet, bobbins, two hook/race assemblies, needles wrapped in an oily rag and some bits that I haven't figured out yet. I should add that I don't really need this machine as it's essentially the same as my 331K4. Anyhow, on to the stand. The table is obviously not original and has been built from 1 1/4" tongue and groove planking. The stand wasn't set up but the pulley stack just bolted straight on to existing bolts in the table. I don't know much about these things, but it appears that this may have been a "convertible" version of the treadle that Singer made, wherein a motor could be connected via the pulley stack in lieu of the treadle. That would account for the fact that it has a clutch built into it (plus the treadle wheel looks a bit small). I've figured out that I need to make a cone-shaped bolt to replace the one missing from the side of the treadle wheel (simple enough) but I can't work out how the Pitman rod from the wheel crank attaches to the treadle itself - there's no attachment point, nor can I see where anything may have broken off. Can anyone provide any photos (or a parts list, if there is one) for a complete treadle of this type? I reckon I'll have to get rid of the yukky grey colour of the stand and give it a shot of black, and at some point make a decent table top. My intention is to fit one of my spare walking foot heads to it. This is becoming an obsession - scary stuff! Edited February 20, 2017 by dikman Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cdthayer Report post Posted February 20, 2017 (edited) That looks to me like a home-made setup using a household treadle stand to power an industrial machine head. Most Singer industrial treadle stands have a 16” diameter flywheel, while that one has the design of a 12”. What size is it? The clutch assembly (does it say Singer or Atlas on it or something else?) appears to be mounted in reverse of how it would be mounted to power with a motor, so it was probably used only as a speed reducer or increaser depending on how the belts were arranged. The machine head appears to have the smaller electric-type pulley on it, but that would be unusual for a 1923 model. Maybe it just looks small in the photo. Whether or not it is a smaller pulley, the step pulley (clutch assembly) arrangement may have helped make the unit easier to treadle or control. It’s an interesting setup, and I probably would have drug it home too. CD in Oklahoma ETA: I was wrong about the clutch being mounted in reverse. The motor would mount outside of the treadle stand frame, if the frame is not in the way. The clutch could have been mounted onto an old H-leg power stand at one time. That's where I see most of them. Edited February 20, 2017 by cdthayer Corrected a mistake. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CowboyBob Report post Posted February 20, 2017 That's a great deal,your very lucky usually when the put the motor on they throw the treadle wheel in a corner & it probably ends up thrown away.We get people calling all the time for them! Nice looking machine for the $$ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leecopp Report post Posted February 20, 2017 Cool find. Here is a shot of the motor clutch that came on my 21w180. It is a Wheeler Wilson Clutch with a 1890s patent.. Looks like the harp from a domestic machine attached to a wooden frame. . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
suzelle Report post Posted February 20, 2017 I love the old Singers, no matter how rusty. You should stay busy fixing that one up and it will be fun! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dikman Report post Posted February 20, 2017 cdthayer, it's a 12" wheel. I had a feeling it was probably a domestic treadle when I saw it, so thanks for confirming that, and yeah, home-made but not a bad job. There are two plates, with bolts, mounted underneath the table and I figure that's where the motor was mounted (probably just an ordinary 1/4 HP or similar). All the parts appear to be there (including the protective cover that fits in front of the treadle wheel) and the belt guides, although there is a snapped off bolt in one of them. There is also one small part that appears to have been cut off from somewhere (haven't found where yet) that looks like a belt guide maybe. I just have to work out how the crank linkage attaches to the treadle plate, there's no obvious way I can see and no sign of where anything has broken or been cut off. I'll start looking at google photos to compare various treadle plates. The head unit doesn't have any Singer decals anywhere, so I'm guessing it's been repainted, but if so it's a pretty neat job. I'm not too concerned with the head unit yet, I'll concentrate on getting the treadle sorted. I reckon finding one with that step pulley might be a stroke of luck, as I haven't seen one in any of the ads I've looked at before. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dikman Report post Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) This treadle is proving interesting. I've spent a lot of time with my friend Mr. Google and so far haven't found out anything about the clutch/pulley stack, not even a photo (yes, it has Singer painted on it). The treadle pedal is also a bit of a mystery. I found out where the broken bit fits, and should be able to weld it back on (the break looks like it's cast steel, not cast iron). There appear to be two types of treadle pedal, one that has the bit sticking out like mine and the other has a piece sticking out that has a hole in it, where the end of the connecting rod (at top of photo) fits into. So the connecting rod on my large wheel could never attach to the treadle that I have! So I have two options - weld the broken bit back and make a new connecting rod to suit the existing bracket, or fabricate a complete new piece, to suit the existing connecting rod, and weld that on to the treadle. The latter will be more work, but that connecting rod end has a ball and socket in it to allow for angle changes when operating so is probably the better way. Just thought of a third option, weld the piece back and fabricate a bracket of some sort to connect the two together. Whatever I do is not going to be as original condition, so it probably doesn't matter what it looks like. Edited February 21, 2017 by dikman Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leecopp Report post Posted February 21, 2017 The treadle plate looks to have been made for a wooden pitman. It is pretty easy to make a hybrid. e-friend bernie describes the process at : http://www.treadleon.net/sewingmachineshop/hybridpitman/hybridpitman.html I personally have taken a two part motor control rod (pitman?) and clamped onto the stub a shortened treadle pitman and bent a loop to fit over the treadle plate stub. Not pretty, but it worked well and only required a hammer and a vice. Lee Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cdthayer Report post Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) I’m not sure if that treadle/machine unit has ever run. I’m wondering if someone was trying to accumulate parts to come up with a working unit. The flywheel doesn’t appear to have the same paint on it as the rest of the stand, so maybe it’s a replacement from a newer model stand. Getting a replacement foot plate to match your pitman rod would be easy to do here in the states, but I’m not sure about Oz. I’d go that route first before I tried to marry the broken plate to your rod. I can’t see the second belt hole in the table top, but if you sight down through the holes by aligning your eye with the machine balance wheel pulley with the hole in the table, you can get an idea whether the belt went to one of the clutch pulleys or to the flywheel (or neither). If the second hole is a slot, it may not tell you much, but the hole in the front has to line up fairly well with something obvious below for the belt to not rub. That type of clutch would have a small electric motor attached to it on the end opposite the actuation lever. Various motors can be swapped out to attach to the clutch unit. I can’t see if the frame would be in the way or not from the photo. The motor would need to mount outside of the frame. Using a household treadle stand to power an industrial machine works just fine, depending on what you’re sewing. I have my 1950 Singer 78-3 needle-feed machine on a small household tubular steel treadle stand. My wife quilted two quilts on it in the past couple of weeks. CD in Oklahoma ETA: I just remembered that some of the older treadle stands that had wooden pitmans were narrower than the newer models of treadle stands, so finding a plate to fit may be more difficult than I stated. Edited February 21, 2017 by cdthayer Thought of something. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dikman Report post Posted February 21, 2017 Excellent info, guys, now I have a clearer picture of how it should fit together. It won't be hard to make up a replacement connecting piece from steel. You may be right, cdthayer, about the collection of parts as the wheel still has remnants of what was probably the original black paint, as does the protective guard, whereas the rest has been painted gray. The belt holes line up with the flywheel and judging by the mountings underneath it was motor powered. I figure I'm lucky that I seem to have enough parts to be able to get it working, as people want ridiculous amounts of money here for the old treadle assemblies. And as for spare parts...... I think I'm going to need a lot of paint stripper to get rid of that yukky gray! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dikman Report post Posted March 9, 2017 Having finished off the treadle, I had a quick look at the machine itself and noticed there is a lot of backwards/forwards free play when turning the handwheel, so I suspect it may be pretty worn somewhere. I think I'll put this aside for a while as it's not something I need. One interesting (to me) thing I found in the bits that came with it is a heap of bobbins, all made of brass! They measure 15/16" diameter x 0.37" wide and unfortunately don't match any other machine that I have - but they do look nice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cdthayer Report post Posted March 9, 2017 That free play may just mean that she’s broke-in good and already well-trained? The bobbins are interesting. CD in Oklahoma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
suzelle Report post Posted March 11, 2017 On 2/21/2017 at 2:20 PM, dikman said: Excellent info, guys, now I have a clearer picture of how it should fit together. It won't be hard to make up a replacement connecting piece from steel. You may be right, cdthayer, about the collection of parts as the wheel still has remnants of what was probably the original black paint, as does the protective guard, whereas the rest has been painted gray. The belt holes line up with the flywheel and judging by the mountings underneath it was motor powered. I figure I'm lucky that I seem to have enough parts to be able to get it working, as people want ridiculous amounts of money here for the old treadle assemblies. And as for spare parts...... I think I'm going to need a lot of paint stripper to get rid of that yukky gray! Hey, you got a 31-20 there, so it will all be worth it, right? Yeah, the iron base is for a home/domestic machine, but I really like the way they have created the "drop down" on the left side of the table. That was a huge space saver! The commercial tables can take up a great deal of space! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dikman Report post Posted March 27, 2017 The biggest problem with this machine (besides the horrible paintwork!) was the lack of a thread tension release. Going through the old parts lists I found what it was supposed to look like but didn't like my chances of being able to buy one - so I figured I'd make one. While obviously not as neat as the "bought" one, it works, which is the main thing. The shape is also slightly different as I'm assuming the genuine part is probably hardened, being so thin, but all I had to work with was plain steel so I put a twist in it to give it more strength where it pushes on the release pin. It took a lot of trial-and-error fitting and grinding to get it so it would just squeeze in without removing too much metal. I was going to paint it but then realised with all the oil in there it would probably dissolve the paint, so I just gave it a good coat of thick wax. It's not pretty, but I can't see it when it's inside!! It was a bit of a pain working in that area! Now for the paint........ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dikman Report post Posted March 30, 2017 I decided to have a go at removing the paint otherwise it could be a while before I get to it (I have to go into hospital tomorrow and the surgeon told me that I won't be doing anything except resting for the next two weeks! Bit of a bummer). This thing had up to four coats of paint in places! The baseplate had the original black, then a pink primer, in some places a white paint and then the grey. The head varied from black with grey on top to the four coats. It took three coats of stripper to clean the baseplate and I ended up using a wood chisel to scrape off as much paint as I could first, followed by paint stripper and then a wire brush. Even if I never use it I felt I owed it to the machine to try and make it look nice again . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dikman Report post Posted April 7, 2017 Just for anyone who may be interested - The original paint had a greenish tinge to it, which doesn't really show up in the photo - Down to bare metal - Sprayed with automotive acrylic primer. I actually liked this colour and considered just overcoating with a clear sealer but I'd already sprayed some of the other parts black - Black at last. Because I sprayed outside it's not perfect and picked up some dust particles, but I'll leave it for a few days and I might give it a polish once the paint is fully cured. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
suzelle Report post Posted April 7, 2017 Hey, nice job so far! Hope you are healing well after your surgery! Sewing machines - good therapy!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Constabulary Report post Posted April 7, 2017 why have you over painted the badge and pins? 16 minutes ago, suzelle said: Hey, nice job so far! Hope you are healing well after your surgery! Sewing machines - good therapy!!! I could use a therapy because of sewing machines . More sewing machines make it even worse Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dikman Report post Posted April 7, 2017 Don't panic, the brass model badge is covered with masking tape (I forgot to take the tape off), the brass Singer badge is missing (when I cleaned the paint in that area it actually has a large number 10 (?) stamped into the metal where the badge would be) and the serial number has been painted over so it won't rust (but can still be seen, of course). Thanks suzelle, I'm healing well, the surgeon is happy with the results although, depending on the biopsy report I may have to go back, but that's no big deal. As a result of renovating this machine I've re-discovered my interest in airbrushes (I'd forgotten all about them) and bought myself another one (I have four now, along with a small gravity feed gun) and one of those small compressors for airbrushes, as it will give me some portability that I don't have with my bigger compressors. I want to have a go at airbrushing dye on leather. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Constabulary Report post Posted April 7, 2017 aaaah - I see... havent noticed the masking tape Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
suzelle Report post Posted April 7, 2017 9 hours ago, Constabulary said: I could use a therapy because of sewing machines . More sewing machines make it even worse Haha! Yes I feel that way some days when wrestling with my commercial embroidery machines. I ran a 600 piece hat order this past week and the sound of the beeps that alarm you when embroidery is done, or thread is broken, or bobbin runs out (etc...) plays in my head continually long after I get a run like that one done. Working late into the night, beep beep beep... Yikes!!! A simple singer is therapy for me. Fixing a machine that runs simply and beautifully is a pleasure. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
suzelle Report post Posted April 7, 2017 7 hours ago, dikman said: Thanks suzelle, I'm healing well, the surgeon is happy with the results although, depending on the biopsy report I may have to go back, but that's no big deal. As a result of renovating this machine I've re-discovered my interest in airbrushes (I'd forgotten all about them) and bought myself another one (I have four now, along with a small gravity feed gun) and one of those small compressors for airbrushes, as it will give me some portability that I don't have with my bigger compressors. I want to have a go at airbrushing dye on leather. Good, glad to hear that! Will keep you in thought and prayer as you heal. Ooh la la on the airbrush fun!! I love those too, but so does the Hub! Whenever I get an airbrush gun, compressor, whatever, he ends up with those tools. He paints guitars and trains. So I gave up on that hobby. Better to fix sewing machines for me, a rattle can of paint when I need it works for me. I can steel those from the Mister, he's usually got all the colors I need. He's very supportive like that! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dikman Report post Posted April 7, 2017 Sounds like a great relationship. I just bought another airbrush, they're so cheap out of China/Hong Kong that I couldn't help myself (about AU$16, including shipping, for a .2mm gravity feed double action!). The quality of these brushes is actually very good, and while an Iwata might be nice it's not worth spending another $150-plus in my opinion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MADMAX22 Report post Posted April 8, 2017 Speaking of the badges and painting, does anyone know if there is any source for the same or similar style rivets that were used on these old machines. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dikman Report post Posted April 12, 2017 On 08/04/2017 at 11:21 AM, MADMAX22 said: Speaking of the badges and painting, does anyone know if there is any source for the same or similar style rivets that were used on these old machines. Might need to put this in it's own thread? Better chance of people noticing it. I'd probably make my own - brass rod, with the end peened over to form the head maybe? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
