Singer 45K25

[dorothy glory be]

Hi I have found a singer 45k25 for sale $1000 in Australia Is this a reasonable price? Will it sew bags belts etc ? Is it a trouble free machine in everyones opinion?

Thanks Dorothy

[Constabulary]

Depends on the condition, motor, stand and accessories that come with the machine. Keep in mind the 45K25 has no reverse - not that you need necessarily but reverse is quite comfortable. I have been looking for years for a 45K with reverse but have to admit that I´m a bit Singer crazy - could have bought Adler 5 with reverse but wanted a 45K (or 45D in my case).

Always test sew a machine with the thread and material you want to use. $1000 AU is not a bargain I´d say but sewing machines are generally more expensive in AU that in Germany or the US AFAIK.

If you can post some good detailed pictures of the machine.

 

[dorothy glory be]

+These are the photos posted on the sale site. Thank you for your input. I cant actually look at the machine .

[dikman]

Sounds a bit on the high side price-wise (to me, at least), given that it's not even a walking foot (probably asking a lot because of its age, I guess). From the little I could find out about this model it should do what you want, but bear in mind it has a clutch motor and for someone new to industrial machines they can be pretty scary, particularly when you want to sew very slow. I wouldn't mind it myself, only for what it is, but there's no way I'd pay that much for it.

I think you'd be better off looking around a bit more and perhaps trying to find a walking foot machine, and if it doesn't have a servo motor then allow for that in the budget too. I reckon you should be able to find better value than that. Have a read of the "stickies" at the top of this section, they should help you to understand these machines a bit more.

[RockyAussie]

5 hours ago, dorothy glory be said:

Hi I have found a singer 45k25 for sale $1000 in Australia Is this a reasonable price? Will it sew bags belts etc ? Is it a trouble free machine in everyones opinion?

Thanks Dorothy

Hi Dorothy,

I think that is a pretty good price for this machine around this neck of the woods at least. I am out Etna Creek ways if you want to talk. Check my web page it has contact details or just PM me a message. I am not too sure if this size is what you would want for bag making normally but I do have a Cowboy 441 here if you want to check it out for use.

[dikman]

There you go, Dorothy, talking to Rocky will be of immense value and could save you from buying the wrong thing and hopefully make sure you get the right machine for your needs.

[dorothy glory be]

4 hours ago, RockyAussie said:

Hi Dorothy,

I think that is a pretty good price for this machine around this neck of the woods at least. I am out Etna Creek ways if you want to talk. Check my web page it has contact details or just PM me a message. I am not too sure if this size is what you would want for bag making normally but I do have a Cowboy 441 here if you want to check it out for use.

Hi Rocky I have not used a leather sewing machine before but have years of experience using normal sewing machines. I have been using my sewing machine to do small amounts of sewing on the linings etc and doing most of the sewing  by hand. I make mainly bags and wallets. Do you think this machine is too heavy for what I want. I like a rustic heavy stitch look to my work. Whats a servo motor dikman is talking about. How much is the Cowboy 441 and what sort of sewing does it do?

[Constabulary]

well, considering it´s condition and age (most likely 1960´s or newer) I think it´s not overpriced but you most likely have to add a servo motor (as mentioned before) and the machine still have no reserve. However - 45K are built like tanks they last for many decades if you tread em well. Mine if from pre 1945 and I also have a 133K from 1932 which sews perfect and they by far were not in such a nice condition like yours.

441 clone machines are for sure the better machines but cost a lot more. How thick you wan to sew and what thread size do you wan to use?

[dorothy glory be]

Not sure what a servo motor is ?? I want to use it to sew two pieces of 4oz leather together for bags and carving leather onto the bag also wallets several thicknesses of leather with lining . Currently hand sewing so will want to use thicker thread as I have said I haven't used a leather sewing machine before .

 

[Constabulary]

a servo motor is a modern energy saving sewing machine motor that often replaces the old energy consuming clutch motor. Its is easier to use and gives you a better sewing speed control.

a 45k is probably not the ideal machine for just 2x 4oz leather. I´d say a flat bed walking foot machine is better to start with and cheaper to but that depends on whats avail. on your market.

Since you are from Australia I´d check with Steves Industrial Leather Sewing Machines - he is in Gooburrum, Queensland -  or find him on facebook

https://www.facebook.com/Steves-Industrial-Leather-Sewing-Machines-345144232177296/

Maybe this thread gives you an idea how to choose a sewing machine for your projects.

 

 

 

[RockyAussie]

3 hours ago, dorothy glory be said:

Hi Rocky I have not used a leather sewing machine before but have years of experience using normal sewing machines. I have been using my sewing machine to do small amounts of sewing on the linings etc and doing most of the sewing  by hand. I make mainly bags and wallets. Do you think this machine is too heavy for what I want. I like a rustic heavy stitch look to my work. Whats a servo motor dikman is talking about. How much is the Cowboy 441 and what sort of sewing does it do?

Hi Dorothy Given the thickness you state around 3mm it would stitch that fine but I would think it is still likely not a good starting point machine. What I was trying to say is that in my factory I have quite a few various machines and I could give you a quick run through on them and what they do.Our web page shows a lot of bags and wallets and such and these are all done on lighter machines than the this Singer. The Cowboy will stitch up in the same thread sizes and thicknesses as the Singer your looking at and would give you a good idea as to whether it is too much or not, in regards to size.Re the servo motor the Cowboy has one on but many of the other run on clutch motors like the Singer and some have clutch Efca with needle positioners and so on.

[dikman]

Dorothy, it's obvious that you're starting from scratch regarding industrial machines (that was me a couple of years ago!) and there's a lot to learn. If you haven't done so already, read the stickies above (particularly Wiz's about leather machines) as it might help to understand the terminology a bit. I can only urge you to talk to Rocky, his kind offer to talk to you will save you a lot of time in coming to grips with this subject, and his experience would be hard to put a price on.

In short, a clutch motor has always been the "standard" for industrial machines, they are fast (which is what's normally needed for commercial use) and can take a lot of practice to master. Most leatherworkers need the machine to go slow, which can be done with a clutch motor but requires a delicate touch (I couldn't do it!). A servo motor is an electronically controlled replacement motor that allows very slow speed control and requires very little time to learn to use.

There is usually no one machine that can sew everything unfortunately. If a machine is designed for heavy (thick) leather it can be tricky to sew lighter stuff. If it can sew light to medium leather then it won't do heavy/thick stuff. This is why it's important to know exactly what it is you want to sew. Another "complication" is thread thickness. If you want to sew similar thread size to that used in hand stitching you need a big, heavy duty machine! You may have to change your ideas slightly about thread thickness if you want to use a machine for your work. The most commonly used thread sizes are #69/Metric 40 and #138/Metric 20. Once you start going bigger you need the bigger machines, plus the bigger threads can be hard to find here in Oz.

It might seem a bit daunting at first but don't get discouraged, if you can determine which machine is going to fill your needs it will speed up your production significantly.

[silverback]

Dorothy, also be aware the feet and dogs on this machine will mark up your leather.

[Matt S]

When it's on, a clutch motor is always spinning. in the motor housing, between the motor itself and the belt pulley that drives the machine, is a friction clutch. Normally this is fully disengaged so the machine doesn't turn but by pressing the pedal the clutch plates engage in proportion to how far down you press the pedal -- press it halfway down and the clutch is less engaged than when fully down. Think of it like a manual transmission car, except that the gas pedal is stuck at full and there is no brake -- you control the speed of the sewing machine by pressing the clutch pedal (which operates in reverse to that on a car) and by manually applying friction to the balance wheel with your right hand. with practice an operator can get excellent control and sew very fast, which is what these machines were designed for -- professional sewing machine operators, who spend 8+ hours a day sewing the same sort of items at a piece rate -- sew faster, get paid more. It's a learning curve and not something you can jump right into, even if you have a great deal of experience with domestic machines.

 

Servo motors on the other hand are controlled by a digital circuit. You set using a small knob or a few push buttons the maximum speed and all sorts of other little settings, and are much easier to control. Switch it on and nothing moves until you press the pedal. Push harder and the machine moves faster. Let up on the pedal and the machine stops dead. They can be just as fast in a production setting than a clutch motor.  They are also typically much smaller and lighter than an equivalent clutch motor -- I once replaced an old 30kg clutch motor with a 5kg servo that cost me only £100 brand new. The clutch was the size of a 5 litre beer tin, and the servo, with its control panel, half the size of a shoe box.

 

the Singer 45k25 is a classic in the world of leather work, and I would love to add one to the menagerie. They have been out of production for decades and spares are a bit of a premium, though because they are classics certain spares are being reproduced. Remember though that, as well as marking the backside of the leather (which is often not the end-of-world situation a lot of people think it is, and can be heavily mitigated anyway) and not having reverse, they are designed for heavy work with heavy threads that often don't work in thinner leathers. It all depends on the thickness of your items, the temper of the leather and what you consider to be heavy threads. The 45k class for instance can sew using thread up to 18/8 linen (v554/tex600/tkt5 nylon or poly) and down to 18/3 linen (v207/tex210/tkt15) but I don't think I could comfortably get a good stitch on anything less than 2 or 3mm total thickness with the 18/3, and much thicker using the 18/8. On the other hand, were I to saddle stitch say two pieces of 1mm veg tan I could use a thread just about as thick as I like. It's just one of the trade offs when machine stitching.

[MADMAX22]

For bags you would be better off with something that stitches thinner thread and material, for belts I would think it would be a great machine but I dont have one so...

I would say go for it if you have the money, just remember regardless of what machine you get that in the future you will almost certainly get another machine since no one machine is perfect for everything. Get the manuals for it and be prepared to learn the machine in and out. Ask questions before tearing into it. Also take along some of the material you want to use for the belts and stitch it out before you buy it and see for yourself. 

Alot of people dont recommend the old machines yet they all have a bunch of them and dont plan on selling any of them for a say 441 or similar. I know I missed out on a few very good deals because I got directed to buying a 441 when I  didnt know any better. Getting a new machine is "easier" for sure since it comes setup and usually a warranty and what not. If you dont plan on or know nothing of mechanics that may be a good route, if you can learn and dont have the funds for a new one then you have more options. 

[Darren Brosowski]

On 19/03/2017 at 4:23 PM, dorothy glory be said:

Hi Rocky I have not used a leather sewing machine before but have years of experience using normal sewing machines. I have been using my sewing machine to do small amounts of sewing on the linings etc and doing most of the sewing  by hand. I make mainly bags and wallets. Do you think this machine is too heavy for what I want. I like a rustic heavy stitch look to my work. Whats a servo motor dikman is talking about. How much is the Cowboy 441 and what sort of sewing does it do?

I mentioned a servo motor in our PM on facebook and I apologise that I did not explain it better.

The Cowboy servo comes with a very small pulley and a minimum set speed of 300RPM. At best the motor on that 45k25 will be 1425RPM and appears to have a bigger pulley so the servo on its lowest speed reduces the total machine speed by a factor of about 8. When you get more comfortable you only press one button to increase the speed for longer runs.

I mentioned that for your work the CB227R was probably the best machine. These have a small balance wheel on the machine so we fit a 4 to 1 speed reducer.

Because you are doing mostly light work I did not mention the CB4500 (441) as it is way over the top for your needs. While the can do lighter work it is difficult to get the smaller needles. The CB4500 on a heavy pedestal table is $AU4450 with all of the accessories.

 

 

[suellen]

I purchased a 45k25 in a  package deal would like to know the correct needle size I'm using a schmetz 328 LR i also use this needle with my 132k1 if any one has a a manual  for either one would be great

[Constabulary]

Find a 132K manual here. Seiko SK8 is a later but similar model but you get a lot of good information from that manual.

 

Here is a basic 45K Manual for a maschine with reverse but principles are the same.

Hope it helps

45Kmanual.pdf