Weaver Leather--disappointed

[lws380]

I'm disappointed Weaver Leather requires minimum purchases to buy their products.  And if you don't meet the minimum, they charge a $200 per year "fee" to buy as wholesale.  I've bought several things in the past, but being a small business, likely will not ever get to the $1200 per year minimum to avoid a $200 per year fee to order.  I did buy their large floor model snap setter in excess of $500 and some other tools in the past.  It is unfortunate they appear to not want any business from small businesses, without jacking up their prices through the use of retail pricing or jacked up member fees.  Have bought from them at leather shows as well, but likely no more.  Seems to me they work hard to turn away sales.  I understand their business model, but I'm disappointed they push away small businesses like mine.

[bikermutt07]

When people get big, they want to weed out the small fish. It's just business. There was a big ruckus around here when letters went out to all the small businesses.

[TacticallySharp]

I do not buy from them. Did before the change. It has been a while.

[cjartist]

Why Not organize a co-op buy.  Just get a few others to go together with you on a purchase.  The only thing that would be difficult would be shipping everything out to each person.  I guess that would depend on the savings (?) you might get.

[JimTimber]

1 hour ago, cjartist said:

Why Not organize a co-op buy.  Just get a few others to go together with you on a purchase.  The only thing that would be difficult would be shipping everything out to each person.  I guess that would depend on the savings (?) you might get.

Single account (one email address) and multiple buyers info and shipping addresses?   Don't save your CC info on the account and it shouldn't be a problem.

[bikermutt07]

3 hours ago, cjartist said:

Why Not organize a co-op buy.  Just get a few others to go together with you on a purchase.  The only thing that would be difficult would be shipping everything out to each person.  I guess that would depend on the savings (?) you might get.

Why would you do that? There are other smaller suppliers who are still glad to have your business. Why submit to ordering from some one who thinks they're too big to bother with your account?

[MADMAX22]

Careful weaver is a paying advertiser on the forum 

[cjartist]

15 minutes ago, bikermutt07 said:

Why would you do that? There are other smaller suppliers who are still glad to have your business. Why submit to ordering from some one who thinks they're too big to bother with your account?

Oh I agree.  i have no reason to do that myself.  But if the savings were there it might work for some.  I really don't know how their prices compare.

[bikermutt07]

1 hour ago, MADMAX22 said:

Careful weaver is a paying advertiser on the forum 

If that was for me, I didn't make their policy. I don't feel that I my opinion is out of line. I'm sure they have plenty of customers on here that their minimum reqiurements will have no effect on. And that's ok too.

I have only bought from them once and that was at the retail level. And to be honest I was happy with the order I received.

When I had my first business UPS did everything they could to make sure I would never want to give them my business again. This was all about my small business shipping  a quarterly publication. If you don't conduct business with them within a 45 day period your account goes inactive. Then you get to reenter all of your shipping information for everyone again, and again, and again. It was a mess. My friend who works for them was encouraged to let all his friends (that had small businesses) know, by the sales department, that UPS wanted to be their shipping company. So, I jumped in. When the mess was finally over with he typed a letter about my situation. Which included my last encounter with two broken feet, a pallet of magazines ready to ship and no help to be found at the distribution center. He waited until the sales department came along asking for the small businesses again. Then he sent the letter. That letter made it all the way to the vice president's desk. I did get a phone call from UPS. They were polite, I was polite. But I made sure they knew there wasn't a snowball's chance in hell that they would ever get my business again. 

I do my best to try and get someone else to bring my stuff to me that I order. It's a shame when you can make the USPS look more convenient than your own business.

Sorry for the late night rant. And hijack.

Carry on.

[JimTimber]

Wholesale pricing is meant to reward the volume buyer with tiered discounts to offset the lack of personnel time the business has to devote to servicing those transactions, as well as mitigating their exposure to returns and other quality/CS interactions (retail in general has a return rate somewhere around 10% - 1 in 10 sales will come back and cost you money as a reseller). 

If you don't meet their buying criteria, it's reasonable to assume they think you encumber them as much as any other retail customer and they're right in charging you accordingly.  I don't see the problem here.

Edited April 1, 2017 by JimTimber

[NVLeatherWorx]

4 hours ago, JimTimber said:

Wholesale pricing is meant to reward the volume buyer with tiered discounts to offset the lack of personnel time the business has to devote to servicing those transactions, as well as mitigating their exposure to returns and other quality/CS interactions (retail in general has a return rate somewhere around 10% - 1 in 10 sales will come back and cost you money as a reseller). 

If you don't meet their buying criteria, it's reasonable to assume they think you encumber them as much as any other retail customer and they're right in charging you accordingly.  I don't see the problem here.

Actually, wholesale pricing is traditionally intended to support the licensed business operator as a professional courtesy and not just the volume buyer.  The problem here is that when a seller sets an annual volume for their business customers they are no longer providing you with wholesale pricing, they are recognizing your purchasing history with discounts AFTER you have met their volume amount which is nothing more than a "customer appreciation" rate.  To charge an annual fee to those who don't meet that volume is nothing more than an annual membership; you don't get charged that from any other supplier.  Aside from discounted pricing after achieving volume what else do they give you?  Nothing.  Use Amazon as an example and their Prime program; you pay the annual fee and you get perks for it, show me the perks from Weaver (or anywhere else that charges you for access to their product) beyond the regular sales price. There aren't any.  So, that is not wholesale pricing, it is (at best) Member pricing. I am looking forward to the day that Costco starts selling leather so my membership has that much more value to me (but we know that won't be happening).

[HENDREFORGAN]

Here in the UK we have only a few sellers who have this volume or wholesale sales only mentality, yes @JimTimber you are correct, nobody is forced to undersell themselves but, equally, nobody should be forced by buy and/or pay more that they have either and having "minimum order values" is NOT the same as rewarding higher sales purchases with a discount structure. Any seller using "minimum order values" is saying to any potential customer you need to jump over this high-bar before they'll even speak to you.  No matter how you look at it it'll always be "salt in an open wound".

We leather craftspeople are finicky people, we're very "tactile" about our craft, it's not like we're making nuts and bolt's, is it?  So when somebody helps us achieve a project we're most likely to remember that and, for as long as the service remains the same, highly unlikely to look elsewhere . . something those who set "high bars" seem to forget.

[JLSleather]

$1200 isn't much if you're doing any volume of leather craft.  Even if you bought nothing but leather, at over $200 per side then just ordering a side every other month would meet the "minimum".

I wrote 'em, got the price list, and ordered a couple of sides to "test the water".  i wasn't at all happy with the leather i got, so I haven't been back.  So, count me as one who would have met the minimum (multiple times), but had other concerns preventing me from becoming a regular customer.

I DO think the 'group buy" thing is a good idea -- I've suggested it before with Hermann Oak and with Rings gun molds.  Never been much interest in either.  I've had people "want in" when I was getting volume cost, but none who were willing to contribute SO THAT we get volume cost.

 

Edited April 1, 2017 by JLSleather

[Sceaden]

I honestly don't grasp the people that complain about wholesale pricing minimums and structures.
 

That is how business is done, high volume customers cost less per sale than finicky, low volume, often ignorant customers, it's not rocket science. It costs less to sell, loyalty is expensive, you pass on some of your savings and life moves on. I have spent most of my working life in customer service and its hilarious how self important and demanding a lot of small businesses are. You spend 30 minutes taking a $500 order from a big shot retailer who wants to be treated with kid gloves and get the very best pricing because they are so important and the the next phone call is under five minutes for $5,000. 

[JimTimber]

7 hours ago, NVLeatherWorx said:

Actually, wholesale pricing is traditionally intended to support the licensed business operator as a professional courtesy and not just the volume buyer.  The problem here is that when a seller sets an annual volume for their business customers they are no longer providing you with wholesale pricing, they are recognizing your purchasing history with discounts AFTER you have met their volume amount which is nothing more than a "customer appreciation" rate.  To charge an annual fee to those who don't meet that volume is nothing more than an annual membership; you don't get charged that from any other supplier.  Aside from discounted pricing after achieving volume what else do they give you?  Nothing.  Use Amazon as an example and their Prime program; you pay the annual fee and you get perks for it, show me the perks from Weaver (or anywhere else that charges you for access to their product) beyond the regular sales price. There aren't any.  So, that is not wholesale pricing, it is (at best) Member pricing. I am looking forward to the day that Costco starts selling leather so my membership has that much more value to me (but we know that won't be happening).

Never heard of Costco or Sam's Club?

[JimTimber]

7 hours ago, HENDREFORGAN said:

<snip> No matter how you look at it it'll always be "salt in an open wound".

We leather craftspeople are finicky people, we're very "tactile" about our craft, it's not like we're making nuts and bolt's, is it?  So when somebody helps us achieve a project we're most likely to remember that and, for as long as the service remains the same, highly unlikely to look elsewhere . . something those who set "high bars" seem to forget.

You're buying on price alone, but you want the service that comes with retail pricing at the wholesale rate.  That's how businesses fail.  Do you want the supplier to go out of business because they made you happy and had no profit to show for it?  When you spend all your time dealing with the little people and then cut your profit to make them happy, that's when you decide the business of being their slave isn't worth it and you close shop.  Now your "loyalty" has cost you their services.

The Walmart model doesn't work with leather.  You have a high quality expectation, which takes trained people to make good decisions when filling orders.  What grade leather goes in the box?  I've never seen a laser marking of a hide's grade, so you can't say "put this in this order" to just anyone and expect it to be right - those employees capable of doing it cost money.  Maybe not money in wages (because order picking still doesn't pay much, and sewing labor sure looks cheap from the want ads I've seen in MN), but you will have to spend money in screw ups and time teaching them what makes an A, B, utility, or whatever hide.

I've learned a lot about this business in the short time I've been around this forum.  I would NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER sell hides.

[lws380]

I use Hermann Oak leather for my holsters and buy directly through them.  When I first started I did  not need to but 10 hides at a time to meet their minimum.  But several years ago I needed more and more leather and can meet their minimum.  Weaver and other wholesalers buy from Hermann Oak and add 20-25% mark up.  I buy about $8-$10,000 in Hermann Oak hides per year.  I get much better leather buying direct.  Many wholesalers only offer B grades and i can get more A grades ordering direct.. I have never been un-happy with ordering direct from Hermann Oak.  I can certainly meet the minimum purchase with Weaver with leather, but don't see the need to pay a 20%+ markup for lesser leather.  Weaver does not offer exotic skins and I purchase thousands of dollars of exotics as well.  So I limited with them for hardware, tools and other leather supplies that don't make the cut.  Oh well, I can generally find what I need elsewhere without the minimums.  Plus Weavers shipping cost is way out of line IMO.

[HENDREFORGAN]

37 minutes ago, JimTimber said:

You're buying on price alone, but you want the service that comes with retail pricing at the wholesale rate.  That's how businesses fail.  Do you want the supplier to go out of business because they made you happy and had no profit to show for it?  When you spend all your time dealing with the little people and then cut your profit to make them happy, that's when you decide the business of being their slave isn't worth it and you close shop.  Now your "loyalty" has cost you their services.

The Walmart model doesn't work with leather.  You have a high quality expectation, which takes trained people to make good decisions when filling orders.  What grade leather goes in the box?  I've never seen a laser marking of a hide's grade, so you can't say "put this in this order" to just anyone and expect it to be right - those employees capable of doing it cost money.  Maybe not money in wages (because order picking still doesn't pay much, and sewing labor sure looks cheap from the want ads I've seen in MN), but you will have to spend money in screw ups and time teaching them what makes an A, B, utility, or whatever hide.

I've learned a lot about this business in the short time I've been around this forum.  I would NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER sell hides.

. . . but we all take into account that "the price alone" DOES include the service we have paid for and, where on order doesn't fulfil our expectations, we're likely to buy elsewhere. Like I said @JimTimber there isn't anything intrinsically wrong with your argument but it's not going to hold water with many sole traders working on their own and trying to tie down all aspects of their business by themselves?

Maybe too I'm fortunate to be in the UK?  The number of companies working in the leather production and marketing world within British shores can be, in truth, barely numbered by your fingers and almost all are highly motivated to ensuring that their customers, who are now mainly sole traders, are happy enough to return and spend more money.

[JimTimber]

The theme in the supplier threads lately has been that leather workers will never be happy. 

I owe Rusty and SLC a public apology for my participation in the other locked thread.  My dissatisfaction in the size of the remnants overshadowed the quality of the leather in them.  I've looked through one of the bags (they didn't want them back) and if I had different needs, I would've been delighted with what they sent.

 

So if Weaver's policies rub you wrong, then don't buy from them. Companies raise prices to eliminate customers all the time.  Sometimes growing your capacity costs more than it's worth, so the logical solution is to reduce your demand by raising prices to shave off that bottom tier while keeping the people who keep your margins up.

[MADMAX22]

5 hours ago, Sceaden said:

That is how business is done, high volume customers cost less per sale than finicky, low volume, often ignorant customers, it's not rocket science.

Has absolutely nothing to do with "rocket science" its leather working and supply, its not that hard. This is also the mentality that has done away with mom and pop type stores in favor of walmart and amazon. My parents were victims of this changing mentality. Unfortunately it was at the cusp of the internet revolution if you will.

Once again the bottom dollar prevails, the 5-15% increase in sales/revenue every quarter. 

It is what it is and aint gonna change any time soon I guess. Just a good thing all the sewing machine suppliers we buy from dont have this mentality (yet). 

[MADMAX22]

4 hours ago, JimTimber said:

You're buying on price alone, but you want the service that comes with retail pricing at the wholesale rate.  That's how businesses fail. 

I remember a time when wholesalers would drive around to business's and setup orders with them over lunch and a couple of beers (if they had time that day). They would deal with concerns on the buyers end and discuss new products and settle on prices and take the order back and fulfill as requested. If the quality wasnt what we thought it should be (like up to a standard) it would be returned with the person delivering the order or we would take it up with the wholesale representative next time they were around. 

Big house makers return large quantities just like small timers return ones and twos its just a matter of volume. Wickett and craig use to carry all those returns as overstock sales but I think the middle business's (like maverick) have setup deals to take those returns before they get dished out to the public so we little guys dont see those deals anymore. 

regardless if its a $500 or $5000 order there are standards that are kept buy the big boys or little girls just the same. Both require customer service (or atleast use to) the only difference is the big boys have a dedicated employee(s) whos sole purpose is to deal with supply and the quality/price of the supply. 

[Sceaden]

2 hours ago, MADMAX22 said:

Has absolutely nothing to do with "rocket science" its leather working and supply, its not that hard. This is also the mentality that has done away with mom and pop type stores in favor of walmart and amazon. My parents were victims of this changing mentality. Unfortunately it was at the cusp of the internet revolution if you will.

Once again the bottom dollar prevails, the 5-15% increase in sales/revenue every quarter. 

It is what it is and aint gonna change any time soon I guess. Just a good thing all the sewing machine suppliers we buy from dont have this mentality (yet). 

I should have added the caveat that this is wholesale business. The flip side is the close personal attention to each and every customer that you receive at a 70 year old family owned hardware store like I work for but it is recognized and accepted that the prices are higher. You go to wal-mart and they literally have no customer service in the aisles and that's ok because you pay nothing for their products. 

[MADMAX22]

1 minute ago, Sceaden said:

I should have added the caveat that this is wholesale business.

Yeah I know, I was talking about wholesale business also. We only had the family business for 20 yrs or so before selling it, us kids moved away and parents were having a hard time finding dependable employees, and wholesalers no longer gave two S**** about little shops anymore.

[Sceaden]

And let's be brutally honest here. If you are making stuff to sell the only reason you want a better price is to make more profit. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that but why complain about the other guy making money? 

I was really happy to find some great pricing from SLC over Tandy wholesale because now every project that goes out the door leaves a few extra dollars in my pocket.
 

[Ken Kent]

Used to buy from Weaver bought their leather splitter a few years ago by the time all was said & done $2500.00.Today went to Tandy for a few what I consider staple products,glycerine bar carnuba wax & beeswax I only got the bees wax.At this point I had to unload on the manager every time I go this is what I get discontinued discon....discon they really don't care about customer relations.When they opened the store in Edmonton it was like a dream come true they have been discontinuing ever since then.It's a 40 min.drive from my place to Tandy.I guess in reality this is now the norm.