Thread issues Singer 111

[Work9to5]

Hi guys, looking for a bit of help. I just bought my first industrial sewing machine. A singer 111G156. I got a great deal on her. She operated normally during the inspection. Really beautiful stitches. And in great working condition as far as I could tell. Got her home and oiled and put in a new bobbin (one in her was plastic and wasn't in great shape. I'm having some trouble now that I've changed the string out. The machine won't stitch. From what I can tell the bottom bobbin thread is tangling and won't "loop" so it can be puller up in order to stitch.

I'm using a size 22 needle. And I've tried 138 and 96 thread. Both producing the same issue. 

And ideas on where to start to diagnose this problem would be appreciated. Could the height of the needle be producing this problem? 

Any help is appreciated, thank you

[dikman]

If it worked before then the needle height should be ok. Did you insert the bobbin so that the thread is coming off in the right direction and is threaded correctly? You could try reversing it in the bobbin housing and see if it makes any difference.

[Uwe]

Also make sure you actually pull up the bobbin thread through the feed dog hole. You can't just leave the bobbin thread dangling underneath after changing the bobbin. Hold the top thread and hand-turn one cycle to pick up the bobbin thread and bring  it to the top. The hold both threads for the first few stitches to avoid tangles underneath. 

[Constabulary]

Read the manual - if it still does not work ask again. No offense but the manual should always be the 1st check.

Not for 111G156 in particular but the threading is the same

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8SsIFb6Bqz7bjBSb2Y2cjlMNGs/view

[mikesc]

  Quote

Read the manual - if it still does not work ask again. No offense but the manual should always be the 1st check.

Not for 111G156 in particular but the threading is the same

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8SsIFb6Bqz7bjBSb2Y2cjlMNGs/view

Expand  

I've mentioned this before re links to photos or manuals, but it is worth repeating..
Unfortunately reading a manual from that link requires signing up to, or signing into Google..thus giving Google your name, your location/ address, and your phone number..private highly identifying information, they then are able ( and they do ) track who you are and what web pages you look at , and what you have already looked at , what you search, what you have already searched..and their cookies ( used to track you ) last for 35 years..plus they will be tracking your unique IP address and browser footprint etc, via G analytics on all websites that run it ( over 80% of all websites do )..for the next 35 years..or more..Do you really want a private corp to have that information about what you see, where you go etc..

Edited May 18, 2017 by mikesc

[CowboyBob]

[Constabulary]

  On 5/18/2017 at 9:58 AM, mikesc said:

 

I've mentioned this before re links to photos or manuals, but it is worth repeating..
Unfortunately reading a manual from that link requires signing up to, or signing into Google..thus giving Google your name, your location/ address, and your phone number..private highly identifying information, they then are able ( and they do ) track who you are and what web pages you look at , and what you have already looked at , what you search, what you have already searched..and their cookies ( used to track you ) last for 35 years..plus they will be tracking your unique IP address and browser footprint etc, via G analytics on all websites that run it ( over 80% of all websites do )..for the next 35 years..or more..Do you really want a private corp to have that information about what you see, where you go etc..

Expand  

I see the manual w/o being logged in / signed up on google - I can download it as a ready PDF. I have no problems...

[mikesc]

That is only because you are already being tracked by google via ll the scripts that you are allowing them to run on your computer..
*to access the link you posted to the manual one has to allow google.com to run over 20 scripts on one's computer..you are obviously allowing them all without realising it, so google is tracking everything you do and see and read, and watch , and search for on the internet..

wiz and I ( like wiz I also have a computer related / IT business..and have a great many websites , which I build myself, and run 5 servers here in France, have 10 computers here in the house, and have been working in IT, self employed or as a consultant, since 1970s, so I do know what I'm talking about here ) had a conversation about google drive here earlier this month, You'll note that wiz confirms what I'm saying about google drive..
http://leatherworker.net/forum/topic/75644-prettiest-singer-111w155-biggest-pain-in-my-butt/#comment-498992

btw..for anyone reading, if the manual that Constabulary linked to on google drive is the same as was mentioned in the previous thread which I link to in this post, wiz linked to a copy of it that is hosted here on leatherworker.net ( where you don't even have to authorise g analytics that run here to be able to download it.. )

here is the link again
 

111W152_W153_W154_W155.pdfFetching info...

 

btw..I do not make websites for other people anymore, I do not have the time..so please do not ask..( wiz makes websites for other people still I think..so ask wiz ) nor do I tell which are my sites..so please do not ask..strangely a refusal to name ones sites publicly often offends, or makes others question if one has them.

Edited May 18, 2017 by mikesc

[Wizcrafts]

  On 5/18/2017 at 11:08 AM, mikesc said:

btw..I do not make websites for other people anymore, I do not have the time..so please do not ask..( wiz makes websites for other people still I think..so ask wiz ) nor do I tell which are my sites..so please do not ask..strangely a refusal to name ones sites publicly often offends, or makes others question if one has them.

Expand  

:-)

[Work9to5]

Ok guys thank you for the responses. I actually have the manual. I went through it before trying to operate. Followed the oiling procedure from it. I also did a ton of reasearch before buying it and after from the web (videos) and particularly this site. I believe I have it threaded correctly, when I took off the thread that was on it when I got it I followed to the letter it's path with the new thread. And I double checked via a couple YouTube vids. I have the day off so I'm determined to get to the bottom of this. I will re-thread her again today to double check and attach some pics. 

I am hand turning to get the needle to pick up the bobbin thread. For some reason it's having trouble doing this. I'm having to turn it around 20 times before it will "catch" the bobbin thread. When it does catch. I do pull the bobbin thread through the feed dog and am holding top/bottom threads to the back of machine before trying starting a stitch. When I do get it though an line up to stitch, it will either get tangled on the bobbin right away or runs a couple stitches (like two) and then tangles.  

I did change the needle out from what came with the machine. It came with a leather point needle. I switch it out because I wanted to use some cheap vinyl thread to test and figure out the machine. I have tried going back to a leather needle and matieral to see if this alievitates the issue, it does not. The reason I brought up needle height is I can't really find any info on it. Plus this machines' "needle holder" is slightly different from what I've seen. It's got a hole in it which I can tell if its purpose is to use a thread guide or to help with needle placement. It's hard to tell what I'm talking about without seeing a pic of it, will upload pics within the hour. 

Btw- I don't care who tracks me or sells my info to who as long as along the way I figure everything about this machine and it helps me to be a better leather worker 

[Work9to5]

Ok, so I've been playing with my new to machine and have figured some things out. I'll put my main questions in bold so they are easy to find. 

SHOULD I BE ABLE TO SEE THE BASE OF THE NEEDLE THROUGH THE HOLE ON THE "NEEDLE ARM"? Or is this hole provided to run thread through, before going to needle. (See photo 1)

I was able to clear up bobbin tangle issue and can now bring up the bobbin thread through the dogs. Hoping it does not tangle again. FROM THE PIC DOES ANYTHING LOOK OUT OF SCEW? (Photo 2)

Perhaps that curved hook should be moved more towards the bobbin holder? When it tangled I found that it was getting wrapped on the tiny "bar" that is part of the bobbin holder that touches the "feed dog plate". 

I am now able to stitch with it. Pretty exciting! Two issues. 1.) TOP STITCH DOESNT LOOK RIGHT TO ME, TOO STRAIGHT? TOO MUCH TENSION? While the bottom looks better to me. Thoughts?

top- photos 3 and 4

bottom- photo 5

When I take it slow and hand crank I'm able to provide a nice even stitch. The clutch motor can move pretty fast. But if I'm careful I'm able to control it ok. I have tried doing a moderate fast (for me stitch) without the use of the hand crank. WHEN I GO AT A FASTER SPEED THE MACHINE WILL TEAR THE UPPER THREAD, causes?

its 92 ploy bonded with a 22 needle. I do not think rubbing on the needle point is causing it. It seems to rub and pull with the material and the bottom string at a higher speed. Causing more tension in the top causing a burr to form in the string before it pops. 

Thank you ahead of time. I am a contributing member of a popular motorcycle forum. And started in the same way with that...asking questions and reading. Now 7 years later I'm a question answer and "goto guy" with certain model's engine. I hope to get the same enjoyment and knowledge out of this site and leather work as I have out of that site and motorcycles. 

 

Edited May 18, 2017 by Work9to5
Photos are too big for system

[Wizcrafts]

Use an image editor to reduce the file sizes. The easiest way is to downsize the dimensions while maintaining the aspect ratio. 800 x 600 is all you'll ever need on this forum. Your computer or smart phone may even have a built-in image manipulation program (App for you smartphone users).

If your images are JPGs, try finding an image editor that can reduce the quality as well as dimensions. I use this combo to reduce large JPGs to as little as 1/10th the original file size. I use Corel PaintShop Pro to edit photos. But, I find the free FastStone Photo Resizer to do a very good job with less to dink with.

[Work9to5]

  On 5/18/2017 at 10:01 PM, Wizcrafts said:

Use an image editor to reduce the file sizes. The easiest way is to downsize the dimensions while maintaining the aspect ratio. 800 x 600 is all you'll ever need on this forum. Your computer or smart phone may even have a built-in image manipulation program (App for you smartphone users).

If your images are JPGs, try finding an image editor that can reduce the quality as well as dimensions. I use this combo to reduce large JPGs to as little as 1/10th the original file size. I use Corel PaintShop Pro to edit photos. But, I find the free FastStone Photo Resizer to do a very good job with less to dink with.

Expand  

Resized photos to fit using app called "photo compress". Thanks Wiz

Edited May 18, 2017 by Work9to5

[Wizcrafts]

I think you need to either back off the top tension a tish, or increase the bobbin tension a bit, or move down to the next smaller needle number. If none of these things reliably center the knots, move down one thread size, along with a smaller needle size.

[mikesc]

Agree with everything wiz said..I was typing the same thing when the notification that wiz had posted showed up.

 

re the thread tearing at speed with a clutch motor..that will happen..you need to get a servo motor and probably a speed reducer ( or make the speed reducer yourself  ) then you'll have far better control...if you ew textile with the same clutch motor and set up on the machine it probably wont break the thread, but leather is "stickier" than textile and so the thread cannot get back up through the material as fast as it needs to when the speed goes up..using a bigger size needle can reduce that effect if you want to go fast, but apart from enjoying watching the needle smoke at high speed, why would you want to go fast..unless you are sewing loads of long straight lines like belts etc on a piecework basis.

Edited May 18, 2017 by mikesc

[Work9to5]

Okay guys, thank you for the input. I'll  look into it and report back. My gut feeling from your pointers is that bottom tension is causing it. As I have top tension backed out pretty far. 

[CowboyBob]

Ok, now my $0.02.

It appears to me that the needle is in backwards,you want to long groove on the left & the notch above the eye on the right.

[mikesc]

The bottom tension should be quite "slick"..not much pull needed to get the bobbin to revolve at all, but..only back off the tension at the bobbin by very small amounts at a time in between tests..tiny tweaks on the bottom tension are equivalent to a quarter to a half a turn on the top tension..and don't back off so much that you lose the tension screw on the floor ..

 

just seen Bobs comment..went back up and looked..

Yep missed that..Bob is "da man"..your needle is indeed 180 degrees out..( red face )

Edited May 18, 2017 by mikesc

[RockyAussie]

  On 5/18/2017 at 11:11 PM, CowboyBob said:

Ok, now my $0.02.

It appears to me that the needle is in backwards,you want to long groove on the left & the notch above the eye on the right.

Expand  

Your right, don't you just hate that????? Just think what the cost would be pre digital photos and internet.

[dikman]

I was just looking at the photos and thought "aha, the needle's in backwards" and felt pretty clever - then I found others had beaten me to the punch!

Don't feel too bad, work9to5, you aren't the first to do this and you won't be the last. At least it's an easy fix.

[Work9to5]

Haha, corrected. It's like forgetting to turn the petcock on when you get your first bike I guess. Thank you Cowboy, REALLY very much appreciated. That might explain the top thread kinks lol

And my first diamond pleat! (Done before I switched needle to the correct position) It's ugly but that alone would've taken me half hour by hand. 

Edited May 19, 2017 by Work9to5

[Work9to5]

Switched needle position. Long grove on left. I loaded 138 cause I was feeling daring. No snags, presentable stitch on both sides. Five minutes later... Very excited about the this machine. Going to move on to leather tests and then start a small project test next. 

[Work9to5]

Unfortunately my success with the machine was a limited run. The feed dogs are not moving now. In fact the whole "main shaft" under the machine is not moving when the belt moves. I believe I caused this while trying to use the stitch selector perhaps. 

Just found the Naval repair manual (go Seabee's!) for the 111w. And down the rabbit hole I go

[CowboyBob]

Probably knocked the clutch out,push the button the the rightside of the bed down & turn the handwheel backwards should get it sewing again.

Edited May 19, 2017 by CowboyBob

[Work9to5]

And thanks again. Did the trick. Wish you were closer Cowboy. I'd pay you for a short class on overview of machine functionality

....

I've been taking notes since I've started testing the machine and I'm thinking about starting a new thread topic. Geared towards the singer 111, consew 225, juju lu-562 and variants. Basically compiling and outlining worthwhile topics related to machine details and functions. With title headers such as tension, threading, operation of stitch length adjuster, etc. Being able to compile my info and possibly help other beginners in the future. I would start a general discussion in bold or caps and write my personal notes with pics below (un-capped/bold) and then go back an edit my original topic notes after responses have been posted pertaining to topic, correcting or adding info. With one topic at a time, starting with the basics. Do you (Cowboy) or Wiz or other forum mods think this would be a worthwhile topic discussion to start?

Edited May 19, 2017 by Work9to5