Saddle Lac Sadness

[YinTx]

I think I am not understanding everything put before me well enough to apply the knowledge.  And I am not being clear about what I have done.

 The dye was put on the body of the project before oiling and clear lac.  Should not be a surprise, as it is not uncommon.  Weaver Leather shows a video where they put red dye on before antique.  Al Stohlman's Coloring Leather book discusses dying leather before antique.  I'm not breaking any new ground or rules here.

Pear shaded areas on my current project burnished fine, and also were done using textured tools, not smooth.

Every step I allow 8 to 24 hours to dry, even though I see folks waiting only 30 minutes or less at times.  The red piece above was dyed and Clear-Lac'd weeks ago.

Although the image does not show it, I was using sheeps wool.

I always see folks put resist on the entire piece, even the Kieth Valley video recommended in this thread, he says he applied resist (Clear Lac) over the entire piece before antique paste.

I am beginning to think I am putting my resist on too thick: both the Clear Lac and the Tan Kote, which is why I am not getting the results I expect.  It appears to me I am putting on less than what I see in the examples, but I could be wrong.  Every one says "get it on there good, you need a solid coat.  You may have to put it on twice."  My clear lac is reduced 50% with thinner, and one coat.  Still everything wipes off too well.  I suppose all I can do is experiment some more.  I have tried it with no resist, and it looks like I dipped the thing in a bucket of muddy oil.  Not pretty at all, and no degree of buffing helped.  Did the Eco Flow Gel Antique with no resist, and it came out so dark you couldn't see the tooling.  Perhaps a bunch of coasters where I do things 20 different ways and see which one looks best!  

Was just hoping not to have to go the route of experimentation and discovery when there are over 100 years of folks doing the same before me.

YinTx

[NVLeatherWorx]

26 minutes ago, YinTx said:

I think I am not understanding everything put before me well enough to apply the knowledge.  And I am not being clear about what I have done.

 The dye was put on the body of the project before oiling and clear lac.  Should not be a surprise, as it is not uncommon.  Weaver Leather shows a video where they put red dye on before antique.  Al Stohlman's Coloring Leather book discusses dying leather before antique.  I'm not breaking any new ground or rules here.

Pear shaded areas on my current project burnished fine, and also were done using textured tools, not smooth.

Every step I allow 8 to 24 hours to dry, even though I see folks waiting only 30 minutes or less at times.  The red piece above was dyed and Clear-Lac'd weeks ago.

Although the image does not show it, I was using sheeps wool.

I always see folks put resist on the entire piece, even the Kieth Valley video recommended in this thread, he says he applied resist (Clear Lac) over the entire piece before antique paste.

I am beginning to think I am putting my resist on too thick: both the Clear Lac and the Tan Kote, which is why I am not getting the results I expect.  It appears to me I am putting on less than what I see in the examples, but I could be wrong.  Every one says "get it on there good, you need a solid coat.  You may have to put it on twice."  My clear lac is reduced 50% with thinner, and one coat.  Still everything wipes off too well.  I suppose all I can do is experiment some more.  I have tried it with no resist, and it looks like I dipped the thing in a bucket of muddy oil.  Not pretty at all, and no degree of buffing helped.  Did the Eco Flow Gel Antique with no resist, and it came out so dark you couldn't see the tooling.  Perhaps a bunch of coasters where I do things 20 different ways and see which one looks best!  

Was just hoping not to have to go the route of experimentation and discovery when there are over 100 years of folks doing the same before me.

YinTx

Only use one product as a resist, not multiple.  Once you have applied the Tan-Kote you basically sealed the leather and defeated any potential for the Clear-Lac to work as a resist.  Don't reduce anything and don't apply heavily.  Tan-Kote is a finish and not a resist (contrary to what some may say) and for Pete's sake, quit using those stupid Eco-Flo products; they have to be the worst stuff on the face of this planet and they don't give you any permanent color base either (they will rub off like no tomorrow and you will have nothing but issues).  Just put a single coating of your Clear-Lac on the area that you wish to resist and let it dry; apply your antique and then buff it out.  Once you have the look that you are going for THEN you can apply Tan-Kote or whatever other finish you want.  Your problem was caused by applying everything before your antique.

[Northmount]

1 hour ago, YinTx said:

Did the Eco Flow Gel Antique with no resist, and it came out so dark you couldn't see the tooling.

As soon as you get a the gel antique on, you have to start scrubbing it off with a wet sponge.  If you don't it stays on thick, darker, over the whole item.  As an example, saddle tan turns the whole item a dark red.  George Hurst has a short video showing how to use it.  It would be really nice if Tandy would actually put some instructions on the bottle!  Then I might have half a chance of not ruining my project.

Don't use gel antique and antique paste on the same project.

Tom

[YinTx]

I have only been using one product at a time as a resist.  Either I use: Angelus Acrylic or Tan Kote or Clear Lac.  As you can see at the beginning of this effort, i was not able to get resist to do anything, antique just stuck to it.  Folks recommended Clear Lac.  Now I can't get the antique to do its job through the resist - works really good as a resist.  So now I've got to do some experimenting with how to use the stuff.

Eco Flow products and the Angelus products are the only ones that seem to be working for me at all.  Fiebing's for me has been a complete failure.  I've had Eco Flow items in daily use with no issues at all.  Same with the Angelus dye, Acrylic resist and Antique.  Worked fine once I figured them out.  These dyes work nothing like the spirit based dyes.  I believe the same will be true for the Fiebing's - they'll work fine once I figure them out.

Tom, I'll try your approach with the gel antique, to see if I can get a lighter color out of it.

I'm not sure how to go about applying Clear Lac to the top bit of every basket weave stamp and make sure it doesn't get in the crevices,  so the antique only works in the crevices of the stamped mark.  Seems a bit extreme to me, and if that's how its done, I've gotta find a different product to use, because that would be a colossal waste of time.  And how do you apply it to the entire surface area but not let it get into stamped lettering?  Every video I see shows folks wiping the stuff on the entire surface of the project, letting it dry, then smearing on the antique, everything comes out beautiful after wiping it off.  

If I seem frustrated, please don't take it personally.  I just am, and with everyone's input, the eureka moment will come!

YinTx

[Mattsbagger]

7 hours ago, YinTx said:

I have only been using one product at a time as a resist.  Either I use: Angelus Acrylic or Tan Kote or Clear Lac.  As you can see at the beginning of this effort, i was not able to get resist to do anything, antique just stuck to it.  Folks recommended Clear Lac.  Now I can't get the antique to do its job through the resist - works really good as a resist.  So now I've got to do some experimenting with how to use the stuff.

Eco Flow products and the Angelus products are the only ones that seem to be working for me at all.  Fiebing's for me has been a complete failure.  I've had Eco Flow items in daily use with no issues at all.  Same with the Angelus dye, Acrylic resist and Antique.  Worked fine once I figured them out.  These dyes work nothing like the spirit based dyes.  I believe the same will be true for the Fiebing's - they'll work fine once I figure them out.

Tom, I'll try your approach with the gel antique, to see if I can get a lighter color out of it.

I'm not sure how to go about applying Clear Lac to the top bit of every basket weave stamp and make sure it doesn't get in the crevices,  so the antique only works in the crevices of the stamped mark.  Seems a bit extreme to me, and if that's how its done, I've gotta find a different product to use, because that would be a colossal waste of time.  And how do you apply it to the entire surface area but not let it get into stamped lettering?  Every video I see shows folks wiping the stuff on the entire surface of the project, letting it dry, then smearing on the antique, everything comes out beautiful after wiping it off.  

If I seem frustrated, please don't take it personally.  I just am, and with everyone's input, the eureka moment will come!

YinTx

I feel your pain. I know what you mean every video shows them slathering resist on and "working it into the cuts and stamping". I also haven't been able to get antiquing to work for me.

[YinTx]

First experiment seems a bit successful... not quite where I want it, but infinitely better than what I was getting.  The antique seemed to stay in the textured sections with differing degrees of tenacity.

I tooled this cow skull just to see if I could, first thing I have done of this type, so don't be too harsh on the artistic quality.  Here is the process I used:

OTATC : Oiled with neatsfoot, treated with two layers of Tan-Kote, Antiqued with Medium Brown Fiebeng's paste, treated with Tan-Kote, then treated with Clear Lac.  

Here is where I did things differently:  very thin layers of Tan-Kote, to where there was no shine, it almost all absorbed into the leather.  In the past, I had been putting a heavy coat per all instructions, that set on top of the leather, which later peeled off.  The final coat of Clear Lac was 50% thinned.

I'll be doing some other trials, with different resists done different ways to see what I like best, but I am relieved to have achieved this result finally.

YinTx

[NVLeatherWorx]

1 hour ago, YinTx said:

First experiment seems a bit successful... not quite where I want it, but infinitely better than what I was getting.  The antique seemed to stay in the textured sections with differing degrees of tenacity.

I tooled this cow skull just to see if I could, first thing I have done of this type, so don't be too harsh on the artistic quality.  Here is the process I used:

OTATC : Oiled with neatsfoot, treated with two layers of Tan-Kote, Antiqued with Medium Brown Fiebeng's paste, treated with Tan-Kote, then treated with Clear Lac.  

Here is where I did things differently:  very thin layers of Tan-Kote, to where there was no shine, it almost all absorbed into the leather.  In the past, I had been putting a heavy coat per all instructions, that set on top of the leather, which later peeled off.  The final coat of Clear Lac was 50% thinned.

I'll be doing some other trials, with different resists done different ways to see what I like best, but I am relieved to have achieved this result finally.

YinTx

Next time you do a random item like this try this technique to see what a real resist looks like:

Step 1: use Clear-Lac to resist the actual tooled object by simply painting just the object with the lacquer and let it dry at least 8 hours.

Step 2: once the resist is dry you can then use your antique of choice and apply it just as instructed by the manufacturer, just make sure that you don't let it set before removing excess, do this immediately.

Step 3:  final seal with whatever finish you desire.

The object of a resist is to give different tones to the leather so you use it to block out the penetration of antiques into the areas that you want to be lighter or protected.  For example, you see these beautiful carved pieces with full color detail and darker main body finishes; to maintain the pop of the color those areas are resisted before antiqued.  You can not truly resist an entire piece because all you are doing at that point is to just try and obtain a lighter tone for the whole thing; this and resisting are two different techniques.  Clear-Lac is a resist medium and a finish; Tan-Kote is a finish only.  You can use Resolene as a resist or a finish; Satin Sheen is a resist or a finish.  Leather Balm is a finish only; Neatsfoot Oil is a conditioner; beeswax is a conditioner/finish only.  Everything does not work for everything and using any of these in heavy coatings is asking for some issues, regardless of what the manufacturer suggests.  

Regarding your tooling work on the skull: it is awesome dude!  I love how that turned out and you have a knack for the tooling arts my friend.

[JD62]

  I don't know if you

have seen this video but he has some great tutorials .

[YinTx]

1 hour ago, JD62 said:

  I don't know if you have seen this video but he has some great tutorials .

JD62,

I have seen several of his videos, and this one in particular I have watched like 4 times since I have been so frustrated with the Tan-Kote.  He is one of the proponents of putting on copious amounts of Tan Kote prior to antiquing.  I am suspecting other's perception and my perception of copious are two different things, which is why I experimented with -thin- coats.  The outcome was closer to what I had envisioned.

 

NVLeatherWorx,

I have an "experiment" in mind that is quite similar to what you are proposing.  The only things I have used as a "resist" have been Tan-Kote, Clear Lac, Saddle-Lac, Resolene, and Angelus Acrylic finisher.  Per my studies of Al Stohman's books, internet musings, videos, etc, I had been expecting varying degrees of resist from each, and to use each with different antique products (such as Angelus Acrylic antique with the acrylic resists/finishes, and Fiebings paste antique with the Tan-Kotes, Clear-Lacs, etc).  So I intend to lay them out side by side, and see what looks I can accomplish with different combinations, etc.  I hammered out some basket weave on some scrap belly with some texturing, etc today as a test bed.  We'll see how it goes!  And thanks much for the compliment, I was pleasantly surprised at how it came out, considering my complete lack of artistic capabilities in other mediums.  That is probably destined to sit under a cold beer in my brother's garage, at 3"x3" prolly 'bout the right size for the job.

YinTx

[JD62]

I had hoped you had seen it as it helps me to understand your proses as I have been following this trying to get as much

'learnin" as I can!

[NVLeatherWorx]

20 hours ago, YinTx said:

I have an "experiment" in mind that is quite similar to what you are proposing.  

I posted one here somewhere awhile back that used the Eco-Flo Waterstains as the coloring medium and about 5 different resist products as well so that everyone could see that it could be done with the waterstains but you had to be wise to what your resist was as everything does not work to resist even if it is advertised to do so.  My resist products were Tandy Super Sheen, Tandy Block Out Resist, Resolene (full strength), the Eco-Flo Professional Matte Finish, and Clear-Lac.  If I can drum up a picture of my results I will shoot it to you.

I am currently working on a full color carving that is going to be resisted then antiqued; I will shoot you those images as well if you would like.  Keep in mind, I only use Clear-Lac as my resist (it has a proven history with me and I haven't found anything else that even comes close) and Fiebing's Antique paste as my coloring medium.  You will get varied degrees of resist and those degrees can be further tightened up based on the number of coats you apply of your resist medium so there is an awful lot to take into consideration when doing this technique and your experiment. 

You know what would make that skull really stand out?  Give it a color treatment of white acrylic paint, resist it, and then hit with a dark antique paste; that would give it an aged rustic look.  Still though, damn fine carving for someone who doesn't think they have an artistic bone in their body. You sir have a knack with this carving stuff (I learned this from the get go so most of my career in leather has been carving and tooling; for me it is just simple but I know what it took for me to get there).  You keep at it because this level of detailed work is what makes Master Craftsmen in this trade.

[JD62]

I for one would  like to see your full color  carving, and agree that YinTxs' carving is great!

[YinTx]

JD62, and NVLeatherWorx - Thanks for that!

I have never been a painter or an artist, I suspect I'd get outside the lines if I had to color anything!  Maybe in the future I'll get enough gumption to give it a try.  I would like to see yours!  might be some inspiration in there...

But, now that I have finished up a couple of projects, I can get back to carving and tooling again.  I am in the midst of the antique experiment, and I must say I am a bit surprised by the results I am getting.  I am using the Tan-Kote with success, so much so I will probably be using it in the future.  I think it was as I suspected, I was using it way too thick.  I am pretty much wiping it dry after applying - this really cleans things up and keeps it from cracking or peeling.  Still have the finish coats to put on the experiment, so I will probably post a separate thread to illustrate the differences.  Even with the number of results I have, there are still a huge number of combinations that could be considered.  For now, I am trying to master a couple before I branch out into new realms... i.e. learn to walk before I try to fly! (which is kinda the opposite of how I operate)

YinTx

[JD62]

I'm not too artistic either but maybe I can figure out how to post a couple projects   in a day or two.