Saddle Lac Sadness

[YinTx]

Terry,

I gave the wool technique a try today, no luck.  I had a piece of leather I was trying out various stamps, borders, etc. on that had been dyed red then coated with clear lac.  Put the Fiebing's paste on, waited a few minutes, then wiped it *lightly* ONE time.  Absolutely no antique left, completely pulled it all out.

Here is the result:

Another project I was working on today the leather turned darker brown, but nothing stuck in the pear shaded areas on petals and leaves.  Only place that seemed to have antique left was where I had made decorative cuts.  I am again at a point of frustration. 

YinTx

 

[Ken Nelson]

I put the antique on with trimmed sheepskin and use several pieces to remove the excess but then I always have a lot of scraps laying around the saddle shop.  I use tan kote and do not let it dry before I wipe it off with sheepskin scrap.  Kind of pulls the antique out of where you don't want it.  I buff with full wool sheepskin after the Tankote. I use clearlac for the final  finish, and always apply with sheepskin, usually trimmed to about 1/4" wool.

[terrymac]

If you are attempting to antique dyed leather, it isn't going to work. It is only going to work on natural leather. Not sure what you are trying to accomplish, but if you are trying to highlight tooling that has been dyed, there are probably other products out there that are better suited for that purpose. I will routinely dye the background areas and leave the remainder of the tooling undyed, and those are the areas that the antique does its thing.  Also, if your pear shaded areas are not burnished(darkened) from the tool, the antique is not going to going to take the place of proper tooling techniques unless you are using a lined or  checkered tool that can grab small amounts of the paste.  Slick leather can't do that. You really have to match your product to what you are trying to accomplish.

[NVLeatherWorx]

2 hours ago, terrymac said:

If you are attempting to antique dyed leather, it isn't going to work. It is only going to work on natural leather. Not sure what you are trying to accomplish, but if you are trying to highlight tooling that has been dyed, there are probably other products out there that are better suited for that purpose. I will routinely dye the background areas and leave the remainder of the tooling undyed, and those are the areas that the antique does its thing.  Also, if your pear shaded areas are not burnished(darkened) from the tool, the antique is not going to going to take the place of proper tooling techniques unless you are using a lined or  checkered tool that can grab small amounts of the paste.  Slick leather can't do that. You really have to match your product to what you are trying to accomplish.

I too was wondering what the overall intent was here.  I think that we already covered the proper application steps for dyes/stains, finishes, etc. and it was previously noted that once you have the Clear-Lac applied you have now created a seal which is only going to resist.  I thought that I was the only one sitting back here scratching my head.  Thanks terrymac for hitting this point.

[NVLeatherWorx]

2 hours ago, terrymac said:

If you are attempting to antique dyed leather, it isn't going to work. It is only going to work on natural leather. Not sure what you are trying to accomplish, but if you are trying to highlight tooling that has been dyed, there are probably other products out there that are better suited for that purpose. I will routinely dye the background areas and leave the remainder of the tooling undyed, and those are the areas that the antique does its thing.  Also, if your pear shaded areas are not burnished(darkened) from the tool, the antique is not going to going to take the place of proper tooling techniques unless you are using a lined or  checkered tool that can grab small amounts of the paste.  Slick leather can't do that. You really have to match your product to what you are trying to accomplish.

You can apply an antique to dyed or stained leather but there is a certain order in which these things are to be applied and it is only valuable when trying to create the multi-tone effects, i.e. resisted effect.  Here it goes:

• Finish all tooling/stamping and let leather dry overnight to ensure all moisture is out
• If you are going to do vibrant color elements such as floral or other very decorative coloring then this is the time to dye/paint them and then let them dry for no less than 12 hours.
• Dye/stain main body if this is the direction that you are going and then let it dry for no less than 12 hours.  If your project has the color elements as above remember: you cannot resist an element against dye, it will penetrate right through that stuff.
• Now is the time to resist any areas that you DON"T want the antique to penetrate as deeply; you can control the amount of penetration through the number of times you apply your resist medium.  Let this dry no less than 8 hours before moving on.
• Apply your antique using a sheep's wool pad (synthetic pads work well too) and rub it into the leather in circular motions ensuring that you get the antique down into the texture of the stamping/tooling and the leather.  Once you have the leather covered IMMEDIATELY remove any excess, again using the sheep's wool remnant and start to buff it to a sheen.  Make sure that you are not leaving the leather with a flat dull look, this means that you still have some antique that hasn't been removed.  When buffing off the excess you will notice where your un-protected areas may have darkened while those areas that you resisted have retained very little, if any, of the antique.  This is how it is supposed to work.

You cannot get the antique effect that you are looking for from a piece that has been totally sealed with an acrylic or Clear-Lac, it has blocked the pores of the leather already so there is nowhere for it to go at this point.  If you are looking to give a fully dyed project a bit more depth in color in some areas then you need to apply your coloring agents BEFORE any finish/sealer, otherwise you are just wasting time and materials for an effect that you won't be able to achieve.

[YinTx]

I think I am not understanding everything put before me well enough to apply the knowledge.  And I am not being clear about what I have done.

 The dye was put on the body of the project before oiling and clear lac.  Should not be a surprise, as it is not uncommon.  Weaver Leather shows a video where they put red dye on before antique.  Al Stohlman's Coloring Leather book discusses dying leather before antique.  I'm not breaking any new ground or rules here.

Pear shaded areas on my current project burnished fine, and also were done using textured tools, not smooth.

Every step I allow 8 to 24 hours to dry, even though I see folks waiting only 30 minutes or less at times.  The red piece above was dyed and Clear-Lac'd weeks ago.

Although the image does not show it, I was using sheeps wool.

I always see folks put resist on the entire piece, even the Kieth Valley video recommended in this thread, he says he applied resist (Clear Lac) over the entire piece before antique paste.

I am beginning to think I am putting my resist on too thick: both the Clear Lac and the Tan Kote, which is why I am not getting the results I expect.  It appears to me I am putting on less than what I see in the examples, but I could be wrong.  Every one says "get it on there good, you need a solid coat.  You may have to put it on twice."  My clear lac is reduced 50% with thinner, and one coat.  Still everything wipes off too well.  I suppose all I can do is experiment some more.  I have tried it with no resist, and it looks like I dipped the thing in a bucket of muddy oil.  Not pretty at all, and no degree of buffing helped.  Did the Eco Flow Gel Antique with no resist, and it came out so dark you couldn't see the tooling.  Perhaps a bunch of coasters where I do things 20 different ways and see which one looks best!  

Was just hoping not to have to go the route of experimentation and discovery when there are over 100 years of folks doing the same before me.

YinTx

[NVLeatherWorx]

26 minutes ago, YinTx said:

I think I am not understanding everything put before me well enough to apply the knowledge.  And I am not being clear about what I have done.

 The dye was put on the body of the project before oiling and clear lac.  Should not be a surprise, as it is not uncommon.  Weaver Leather shows a video where they put red dye on before antique.  Al Stohlman's Coloring Leather book discusses dying leather before antique.  I'm not breaking any new ground or rules here.

Pear shaded areas on my current project burnished fine, and also were done using textured tools, not smooth.

Every step I allow 8 to 24 hours to dry, even though I see folks waiting only 30 minutes or less at times.  The red piece above was dyed and Clear-Lac'd weeks ago.

Although the image does not show it, I was using sheeps wool.

I always see folks put resist on the entire piece, even the Kieth Valley video recommended in this thread, he says he applied resist (Clear Lac) over the entire piece before antique paste.

I am beginning to think I am putting my resist on too thick: both the Clear Lac and the Tan Kote, which is why I am not getting the results I expect.  It appears to me I am putting on less than what I see in the examples, but I could be wrong.  Every one says "get it on there good, you need a solid coat.  You may have to put it on twice."  My clear lac is reduced 50% with thinner, and one coat.  Still everything wipes off too well.  I suppose all I can do is experiment some more.  I have tried it with no resist, and it looks like I dipped the thing in a bucket of muddy oil.  Not pretty at all, and no degree of buffing helped.  Did the Eco Flow Gel Antique with no resist, and it came out so dark you couldn't see the tooling.  Perhaps a bunch of coasters where I do things 20 different ways and see which one looks best!  

Was just hoping not to have to go the route of experimentation and discovery when there are over 100 years of folks doing the same before me.

YinTx

Only use one product as a resist, not multiple.  Once you have applied the Tan-Kote you basically sealed the leather and defeated any potential for the Clear-Lac to work as a resist.  Don't reduce anything and don't apply heavily.  Tan-Kote is a finish and not a resist (contrary to what some may say) and for Pete's sake, quit using those stupid Eco-Flo products; they have to be the worst stuff on the face of this planet and they don't give you any permanent color base either (they will rub off like no tomorrow and you will have nothing but issues).  Just put a single coating of your Clear-Lac on the area that you wish to resist and let it dry; apply your antique and then buff it out.  Once you have the look that you are going for THEN you can apply Tan-Kote or whatever other finish you want.  Your problem was caused by applying everything before your antique.

[Northmount]

1 hour ago, YinTx said:

Did the Eco Flow Gel Antique with no resist, and it came out so dark you couldn't see the tooling.

As soon as you get a the gel antique on, you have to start scrubbing it off with a wet sponge.  If you don't it stays on thick, darker, over the whole item.  As an example, saddle tan turns the whole item a dark red.  George Hurst has a short video showing how to use it.  It would be really nice if Tandy would actually put some instructions on the bottle!  Then I might have half a chance of not ruining my project.

Don't use gel antique and antique paste on the same project.

Tom

[YinTx]

I have only been using one product at a time as a resist.  Either I use: Angelus Acrylic or Tan Kote or Clear Lac.  As you can see at the beginning of this effort, i was not able to get resist to do anything, antique just stuck to it.  Folks recommended Clear Lac.  Now I can't get the antique to do its job through the resist - works really good as a resist.  So now I've got to do some experimenting with how to use the stuff.

Eco Flow products and the Angelus products are the only ones that seem to be working for me at all.  Fiebing's for me has been a complete failure.  I've had Eco Flow items in daily use with no issues at all.  Same with the Angelus dye, Acrylic resist and Antique.  Worked fine once I figured them out.  These dyes work nothing like the spirit based dyes.  I believe the same will be true for the Fiebing's - they'll work fine once I figure them out.

Tom, I'll try your approach with the gel antique, to see if I can get a lighter color out of it.

I'm not sure how to go about applying Clear Lac to the top bit of every basket weave stamp and make sure it doesn't get in the crevices,  so the antique only works in the crevices of the stamped mark.  Seems a bit extreme to me, and if that's how its done, I've gotta find a different product to use, because that would be a colossal waste of time.  And how do you apply it to the entire surface area but not let it get into stamped lettering?  Every video I see shows folks wiping the stuff on the entire surface of the project, letting it dry, then smearing on the antique, everything comes out beautiful after wiping it off.  

If I seem frustrated, please don't take it personally.  I just am, and with everyone's input, the eureka moment will come!

YinTx

[Mattsbagger]

7 hours ago, YinTx said:

I have only been using one product at a time as a resist.  Either I use: Angelus Acrylic or Tan Kote or Clear Lac.  As you can see at the beginning of this effort, i was not able to get resist to do anything, antique just stuck to it.  Folks recommended Clear Lac.  Now I can't get the antique to do its job through the resist - works really good as a resist.  So now I've got to do some experimenting with how to use the stuff.

Eco Flow products and the Angelus products are the only ones that seem to be working for me at all.  Fiebing's for me has been a complete failure.  I've had Eco Flow items in daily use with no issues at all.  Same with the Angelus dye, Acrylic resist and Antique.  Worked fine once I figured them out.  These dyes work nothing like the spirit based dyes.  I believe the same will be true for the Fiebing's - they'll work fine once I figure them out.

Tom, I'll try your approach with the gel antique, to see if I can get a lighter color out of it.

I'm not sure how to go about applying Clear Lac to the top bit of every basket weave stamp and make sure it doesn't get in the crevices,  so the antique only works in the crevices of the stamped mark.  Seems a bit extreme to me, and if that's how its done, I've gotta find a different product to use, because that would be a colossal waste of time.  And how do you apply it to the entire surface area but not let it get into stamped lettering?  Every video I see shows folks wiping the stuff on the entire surface of the project, letting it dry, then smearing on the antique, everything comes out beautiful after wiping it off.  

If I seem frustrated, please don't take it personally.  I just am, and with everyone's input, the eureka moment will come!

YinTx

I feel your pain. I know what you mean every video shows them slathering resist on and "working it into the cuts and stamping". I also haven't been able to get antiquing to work for me.