Cowboy 3200 vs 3500 vs 4500

[Yetibelle]

l was sooooooo close to talking myself into a 4500, that I just talked myself out of it.  Darn...... I'm sure other must have struggled with this question so I'm looking for how you may have worked this out.  I technically own a few machines, but I have never had a NEW machine and now I'm ready and just can't narrow it down.  I want to run the heavy thread but in reality I don't see myself sewing thicker than 1/2 inch on most projects.  I like the idea of the longer arm but Is it worth the extra $700 for 415 and extra arm space?  Why can't the 3200 run the 415 thread if they use the same needle and hook? Last - What about the 3500 is this the compromise? 

Yes I do plan on calling Toledo - but also looking for what others may have gone through picking there first NEW machine.  Thanks 

[garypl]

I bought a CB4500 a few months ago and I am really happy with it.  I also went back and forth trying to decide whether to go with the 4500 or one of the smaller models.

i would rather buy a machine that does more than what I need and grow into it rather than buy lower and then wishing I had the higher capacity.  You buy a machine that can sew 1/2" max and you always sew 1/2", you are running it at its maximum capacity all the time.  Buy the larger machine and you are running at 60% of its max capacity.

I have sewn leather from 5-6 oz up to 5/8" thick and it handles everything with no problems - I don't even adjust the tension when I change needles and thread and it sews great.  I may eventually buy another smaller machine for very thin leather, but I'm still learning the ins and outs of this one for now!  

Gary

[Double Daddy]

I believe Bob at Toledo Sewing had some used CB4500's in stock at a STEAL (saw it on his FB feed the other day)...as in a similar price to a new CB3200...plus, he and his staff goes over them to make sure they run right (like they do all their machines) before they go out the door...worth a look to see if one's still available...may have all been snatched  up already.

[Yetibelle]

13 minutes ago, Double Daddy said:

I believe Bob at Toledo Sewing had some used CB4500's in stock at a STEAL (saw it on his FB feed the other day)...as in a similar price to a new CB3200...plus, he and his staff goes over them to make sure they run right (like they do all their machines) before they go out the door...worth a look to see if one's still available...may have all been snatched  up already.

Well that may be the option I will check on that tomorrow and see what they have in refurbished.  So far that's 2 votes for the 4500.  

[Wizcrafts]

With the 3500 and 4500 (and 5500) you have the capacity to sew at least 3/4 inch, if not a little more. With the 3200, you have 1/2 inch capacity, with possibly a tish more if you dink with the presser feet. Both of these measurements are done using the standard curved throat plate that is only about 1/16" thick.

What happens if you need to sew stirrups, or holsters that have tabs on the back, or something that is shaped on the bottom and the stitch line must be elevated? When you install a holster throat plate you instantly lose between 3/8 to 7/16 inch of usable sewing capacity. If the machine is a 3200, that will leave you with about 8 ounces of sewable thickness on the throat plate, before the feet max out. With a 4500, you'll have at least 16, if not 18 ounces thickness left.

Also, thicker thread requires bigger needles which add to the stress on the presser feet that are trying to hold down the stack of leather. There are many times when I have to tighten down the pressure spring all the way. And, I have an extra heavy, not standard spring on my presser bar. I don't believe that the 3200 can hold down that load.

[Joon1911]

I'd second Wiz's consideration.  When I bought my Cobra C4 I don't think the 3200 was an option yet or I might have been swayed by the price.  That being said when I use the holster plate, I'm pretty limited as to how much leather I can fit under the presses feet without monkeying with them.  Get as much machine as you can see yourself growing into needing and you won't have any regrets.  I certainly don't.  

[Yetibelle]

Those are good points I didn't factor-in the throats plate "math" in my thinking.  How many foot and threat plate options are there for the 4500?  I figure I would be working with the inline-foot and the left\right foot for narrow side lines.  There are custom plates that people have made also if I remember right.   

[CowboyBob]

We have the plates & etc listed here;http://www.tolindsewmach.com/cb-acc-pack.html

[Wizcrafts]

1 hour ago, Yetibelle said:

Those are good points I didn't factor-in the throats plate "math" in my thinking.  How many foot and threat plate options are there for the 4500?  I figure I would be working with the inline-foot and the left\right foot for narrow side lines.  There are custom plates that people have made also if I remember right.   

The inline foot set will cause you to lose about 5/16 inch, or so, of sewing thickness, which the 4500 can deal with. But, as a plus, when I first install my holster plate (From Toledo Industrial), due to the extra elevation, I don't need to lower the presser bar to equalize the lift of the feet. It becomes a fairly simple adjustment of a crankshaft that comes from the back to move the feet vertically. I shot a couple of amateur videos on me installing the inline feet and would be willing to share them offline if you send me a PM (I'm dissatisfied with my videography).

[KeithHideWorks]

Do you mind explaining why the inline foot would cause you to lose throat?  Looking at running that with a 4500 and not sure I understand.

 

Thanks,

[Yetibelle]

9 hours ago, KeithHideWorks said:

Do you mind explaining why the inline foot would cause you to lose throat?  Looking at running that with a 4500 and not sure I understand.

 

Thanks,

I think Wiz was referring to the Holster and Stirrup plates.  They have a raised surface for fitting thicker leather under the foot, but because they are raised you loose some clearance under the foot.  You can see how they are shaped in the picture.  The distance between the throat and the needle will be about the same.  I suspect you only use these plates on smaller thick projects that need the lift.  I assume you would use the standard plate most of the time. 

[Wizcrafts]

10 hours ago, KeithHideWorks said:

Do you mind explaining why the inline foot would cause you to lose throat?  Looking at running that with a 4500 and not sure I understand.

 

Thanks,

The inline feet are so constructed that the inside foot sticks up about 1/4 to 5/16 inch above its bottom. Whatever the amount, it is that much less that you have left for the needle to work with before the bottom of the needle bar makes contact with the top of the inside inline foot. It's not so bad if you're using the standard throat plate that comes with the machines. But, if you need to use one of the raised throat plates (to get around stirrups or next to hardware or leather that protrudes down on the left side), you will lose their height above the base plane (feed dog or standard slotted plate) height in addition to the loss from the oddly shaped inside inline alternating foot.

[YinTx]

On 8/2/2017 at 8:24 PM, Yetibelle said:

l was sooooooo close to talking myself into a 4500, that I just talked myself out of it.  Darn...... I'm sure other must have struggled with this question so I'm looking for how you may have worked this out.  I technically own a few machines, but I have never had a NEW machine and now I'm ready and just can't narrow it down.  I want to run the heavy thread but in reality I don't see myself sewing thicker than 1/2 inch on most projects.  I like the idea of the longer arm but Is it worth the extra $700 for 415 and extra arm space?  Why can't the 3200 run the 415 thread if they use the same needle and hook? Last - What about the 3500 is this the compromise? 

Yes I do plan on calling Toledo - but also looking for what others may have gone through picking there first NEW machine.  Thanks 

It seems I've either missed it, or no one has asked... what do you plan to sew mostly?  I have both machines, and a lot of stuff the 4500 simply won't do for me because of the thickness, such as one layer of <4 oz leather to canvas.  I suppose if you were an expert and could finagle the machine, it might do it.  Otherwise, the smaller machine is the tool for the job.  I even have difficulties getting the tensions right on that one with this combination.  However, once you have to double up and have 2 layers of leather and 2+ layers of heavy canvas, sometimes the little machine won't step over the hump so to speak.  All this being said, I am far from an expert, only having struggled to sew a few things on the machines I have.  Just thought someone should pose the question "what is the intended use of the machine?"

YinTx

[Yetibelle]

1 hour ago, YinTx said:

It seems I've either missed it, or no one has asked... what do you plan to sew mostly?  I have both machines, and a lot of stuff the 4500 simply won't do for me because of the thickness, such as one layer of <4 oz leather to canvas.  I suppose if you were an expert and could finagle the machine, it might do it.  Otherwise, the smaller machine is the tool for the job.  I even have difficulties getting the tensions right on that one with this combination.  However, once you have to double up and have 2 layers of leather and 2+ layers of heavy canvas, sometimes the little machine won't step over the hump so to speak.  All this being said, I am far from an expert, only having struggled to sew a few things on the machines I have.  Just thought someone should pose the question "what is the intended use of the machine?"

YinTx

 

I decided on the CB4500 since it will give me the most versatility, the longer arm, the higher lift, ect.  I will be sewing an average of 1/4 to 1/2 inch most of the time so the CB3500 would have worked but I think I would have tried to push it sometimes and then ended up getting frustrated.  I know this because I did this with my 111w155, I kept trying to run heavy thread and bigger projects than the machine is meant to handle.  I could get it to work sometimes, but other times I would just get the machine clogged-up.  So rather trying to force the machine to go beyond the limits I took the advice and got a machine I could grow into. 

I am sewing leather and canvas bags and organizers (I need a better name for that).  I have been looking the last few years for a Singer 97-10 or Singer class 11-22 or similar,  I have not been able to find them locally for any reasonable price so I decided to go for a the Cowboy CB4500 since it has all the features I was looking for (plus reverse) in an arm machine, that can also be converted to a flatbed.   I really love the old machines and I will still keep restoring them, but I wanted a dependable machine that could I can use everyday. 

 

 

 

[SolarLeatherMachines]

On 8/2/2017 at 8:24 PM, Yetibelle said:

I want to run the heavy thread but in reality I don't see myself sewing thicker than 1/2 inch on most projects.  I like the idea of the longer arm but Is it worth the extra $700 for 415 and extra arm space?  Why can't the 3200 run the 415 thread if they use the same needle and hook? 

The 3200 does not use the same hook as the 4500.  They look very similar in appearance, but the 3200 hook is slightly smaller than the 4500 hook.    Need a micrometer to check it.  The 3200 also uses different bobbins, too.  

The 7x4dia-27 size needle used for size 415 thread has a very large diameter and will tend to brush the hook during use.  This is NOT a good thing since it can lead to a hard crash with the hook when the leather deflects the needle.  Basically, it's just too much needle in too tight an area.