Handmade machine stitched?

[Dun]

I don't want to get into the this Versus that at the moment but did want to describe the process of someone I follow on instagram. I was pretty impressed with his process.

He starts at least 3 holes in the leather with no thread in the machine. Just letting it's needle make evenly spaced holes.

Then he threads up the needles and machine stitches the product, leaving the end of the project with some more threadless holes. By leaving enough head and tail length on the threads he goes back and handstitches  (& hand back stitches) both ends.

The best of both worlds and it looks great?

[bikermutt07]

13 minutes ago, Dun said:

I don't want to get into the this Versus that at the moment but did want to describe the process of someone I follow on instagram. I was pretty impressed with his process.

He starts at least 3 holes in the leather with no thread in the machine. Just letting it's needle make evenly spaced holes.

Then he threads up the needles and machine stitches the product, leaving the end of the project with some more threadless holes. By leaving enough head and tail length on the threads he goes back and handstitches  (& hand back stitches) both ends.

The best of both worlds and it looks great?

That sounds like a good process.

[Fire88]

This is an interesting conversation. 

So I just finished a sketchbook cover all pieces cut out with a round knife including the stiffener, glue applied by hand, hands pressed the pieces of leather tiger to get them to stick and keep wrinkles out, clips were used to hold the edges together and aligned till glue set, stitched on my 3200 and leather trimmed by hand.  I’d say that’s handmade.

I used to build cabinets and built my bedroom furniture, ordered wood in the rough flattened it(joiners) ripped it to rough width(table saw) planed it to thickness (planner) ripped it down again, planned it to final thickness, cut it with miter saw, used a router to give all edges a rolled edge, sanded the majority with a palm sander. Those pieces still aren’t perfect as my hands ran the tools, but you better believe I consider them handmade as my hands fed them through every machine and we’re on them through the whole process. 

Back to leather working how many machines does it take to get the hide from the animal to your cutting table? None of us are killing the animal, skinning it and tanning it ourselves that I know of. 

 

[robs456]

5 hours ago, Fire88 said:

stitched on my 3200 and leather trimmed by hand.  I’d say that’s handmade.

Handmade, machine stitched.

I enjoy the replies in the thread, very interesting to see all your views.
It's good to see that most agree that the price of the product ought to come down if it is machine stitched. I would also add  that I think if a product is badly hand stitched the price should come down (or the product tossed), yet we still see people selling product on sites like Etsy with top prices even though the stitching looks like it was done by a 3-year old. While hand stitching is a selling point and could be a mark of quality its mere mentioning does not automatically make it so.

5 hours ago, Fire88 said:

I used to build cabinets and built my bedroom furniture, ordered wood in the rough flattened it(joiners) ripped it to rough width(table saw) planed it to thickness (planner) ripped it down again, planned it to final thickness, cut it with miter saw, used a router to give all edges a rolled edge, sanded the majority with a palm sander. Those pieces still aren’t perfect as my hands ran the tools, but you better believe I consider them handmade as my hands fed them through every machine and we’re on them through the whole process. 

I think the comparison here is interesting but a bit off to our subject.
In this example you're using tools to do stuff to the wood, like sawing a miter joint, planing etc. It is your skill with the tools that decides the outcome of the look of the pieces and the end product.
Similarly with hand stitching, you're using tools to do stuff to the leather. Your hands are guiding the tools and the outcome will be dependent on your skills with the tools.
By machine stitching though it's the machine doing the work, the machine is guiding the needle according to setting, your hands are not guiding the tools. They're guiding the machine though, directionally, but the outcome of the stitch is due to the machine.
 

Can you be a master at sewing leather by hand? I think so.
Can you be a master leatherworker by machine stitching all your products? Surprisingly, I think so too. Just don't price it and market it as hand stitched.

[Mark842]

On 1/27/2018 at 7:49 AM, robs456 said:

Is it ok to price machine stitched stuff at the same level as handmade do you think? 

The market will dictate what an item will sell for. After years in this industry I've found that 75% of our customers know little to nothing about leather. They wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a high dollar hide from H.A.A.S. and a piece of naugahyde if they were holding it.  Out of the 25% that would, the only time it seems that anyone notices the stitching is if it is terrible or great looking decorative stitching. There are even less that could identify the difference between a hand sewn saddle stitch and a machine made lock stitch by sight, and even less that would know why the hand sewn saddle stitch is stronger.

 To the original question, I think its fine to say a product is handmade if it is sewn by machine. It's just not hand sewn. Semantics and opinions. I've learned hard lessons over the years in this business about different manufacturing methods, advertising, and what the customer wants and needs. The easiest way to sum it up is that Harbor Freight exists because not everyone needs a Snapon tool for every job and a lot of people just can't afford the snap on tool. If you have built up your reputation you can be the Snapon quality guy and make a great living selling higher end high dollar products but it is very hard to be the new guy on the block and be the Snapon quality guy. Not saying it can't be done. Back when I started my business I started it with ideas of making my items using better leather, thread, etc. making them stronger and more elaborate than the competition. My business fell on it's face and I started over again with the business model of selling quality simple items that could sold for relatively low prices. Things started selling and after awhile I started adding in some of the higher end items. Been going nearly 40 years now with a second generation getting ready to take the reins and one of the biggest lessons I'm trying to pass on is there are a million really cool products I want to make and I like to make, unfortunately only a handful of those items will become popular with customers and turn into a great selling item. Right after that happens is when the competition starts knocking off your design...but thats another story and I'm rambling!

[bikermutt07]

That was a far cry from a ramble, @Mark842. Good stuff there.

[robs456]

29 minutes ago, Mark842 said:

I'm rambling!

No, please do go on. There's some great stuff in your post. 

[Fire88]

@robs456 I guess my point in the comparison was I could have use ads and hand planes and spoke spoke shaves and hand drills to build my furniture, yet I decided to use tools to speed up the process. If I built it for a customer and used the old ways I would never see an hourly wage I could live on. 

I think there is a difference in marketing a handmade vs handmade and stitched item. I don’t think either is wrong and if you can get the same price of a machine stitched piece as a hand stitched one then good on you cause you’ve built your brand well. 

We see it everyday and don’t realize it that a mass produced item costs the same as a hand built one. My example here is kitchen cabinets I can give you a custom built kitchen for close to the same price as any commercial cabinet store yet give you a better product and design. 

While I'm still new to the leather world and learning a ton especially on pricing items, I truly appreciate these conversations.

[garypl]

1 hour ago, nstarleather said:

Machines are much less forgiving than hand stitching when you're learning.  

Well said Mike - I have a few scrap projects in the bin as a result of my machine sewing education!  Only takes a second to hit the wrong pedal and see your project go south with stitches where they are not supposed to be!

By the way, I received the black leather scraps I bought from you and I am pleased with my purchase!

Gary

[OLDNSLOW]

I'll be honest here I didn't read everything, but don't we sell the SIZZLE AND NOT the STEAK?  hand sewn, machine sewn, but feel the SUPPLENESS of that rich leather? 

Or am I wrong good night.