Juki 1341 questions

[R8R]

Just re-read a email from my local Juki distributor in SF. The LS-1341 is being phased out in north America and only the LS-2342 will be avail. And no sign of a synchro binder option for it.

Alrighty then!

[Uwe]

2 hours ago, JJN said:

I cannot understand why Juki would discontinue the only binding accessory they make for a currently manufactured machine.

 

I have a feeling they didn't sell many kits and it just wasn't worth bothering. At $526.91 ten years ago, it wasn't exactly cheap. Even today with more machines and clones in circulation, I'm estimating the potential customer base among the LW crowd who are willing to fork over that kind of money for a binder kit is in the very low single digits.

Most people in the business of binding don't bother trying to make off-the-shelf binders work. They just have a custom binder made that is perfect for one single application.

Juki may still make and sell some individual items in the kit, I'm not sure.

Here's a screenshot of the Juki 2008 parts price list:

 

[JJN]

I have the swing-forward edge guide, part #1 in the photo. The Fixing Binder Fitting Plate, part #4, can be switched out on the edge guide and have a generic binder attached to it. Juki wants $68 for the plate #4. I think I will make one for about $1. It will not be a synchronized binder, but should work just fine.

 

[R8R]

The Juki America parts website shows the binder kit for the LS-1342 is in stock, (214-34956) but for the LS-1341 it's back-ordered. (and probably will never come back)

I know dedicated binder operations usually mean a custom binder attachment, but it's weird they would eliminate the parts kit that make the machine a synchronous binder in the first place, and no apparent replacement for it for the LS-2342. That leaves the DSC-246 as the only synchro option in Juki's lineup, which have clones readily available (and which I'll probably go with).

 

[Uwe]

For what it's worth, the Juki LS-2342 Parts List (Juki LS-2342 Parts List.pdf) does show a set of synchronized binder parts on Page 57:

Notably, the set of parts includes a vertical feed cam, apparently to "turn off" the vertical feed dog movement for binding mode.

Second notable detail is that the Feed Plate A arm (part #3) rests on top of the feed dog (with a registration pin) and has a knurled tip, which acts as the actual bottom feeding surface.

Looks like they put some thought into this.

Cost of the Juki LS-2342 binder parts set is $601 on the Juki Americas online parts store:

 

Edited September 20, 2018 by Uwe

[R8R]

2 hours ago, Uwe said:

Looks like they put some thought into this.

 

 

Yeah... they are thinking the new machine with this option will set a customer back about $7k delivered. And that is for the BASE model, not the fancy "-7" version.

I do love my LU-2810 but WOW, add a cylinder to it and it blows up the price by 250%.

[Uwe]

The price difference likely is due to the realities of manufacturing economics. Development and tooling cost for a low volume niche product tends to increase the per-unit cost drastically. The reason it only costs $7K and not $17K is because they can re-use engineering and tooling from the high volume flatbed heads.

I for one am grateful that there are companies who innovate at all. The sales to the LW demographic do not sustain the OEM companies. Those sales get lost in rounding errors in their annual report. But we get to enjoy all that innovation after the patents expire and clone makers take over.

[R8R]

5 hours ago, Uwe said:

The price difference likely is due to the realities of manufacturing economics. Development and tooling cost for a low volume niche product tends to increase the per-unit cost drastically. The reason it only costs $7K and not $17K is because they can re-use engineering and tooling from the high volume flatbed heads.

I for one am grateful that there are companies who innovate at all. The sales to the LW demographic do not sustain the OEM companies. Those sales get lost in rounding errors in their annual report. But we get to enjoy all that innovation after the patents expire and clone makers take over.

I agree!

https://youtu.be/qryBuUxURvQ

Sewing is just now getting some true digital automation function that other industries have had for years. Even screen printing went through this about a decade ago. We had automation but digital automation took it to the next level. Being able to digitally set parameters and save them for repeat jobs is HUGE if your machine is there to make you money, and this kind of thing trickles down into lower priced machines later on.

 

[chrisash]

1 hour ago, R8R said:

I agree!

https://youtu.be/qryBuUxURvQ

Sewing is just now getting some true digital automation function that other industries have had for years. Even screen printing went through this about a decade ago. We had automation but digital automation took it to the next level. Being able to digitally set parameters and save them for repeat jobs is HUGE if your machine is there to make you money, and this kind of thing trickles down into lower priced machines later on.

Yes saves the big factories lots of money but gives the equipment a pre determined life as the electrics die years before the machine and cannot be repaired, so we all either continue to use iron or keep buying new.

Edited September 20, 2018 by Wizcrafts
Edited to separate Chris' reply from the quoted content.

[R8R]

2 hours ago, chrisash said:

Yes saves the big factories lots of money but gives the equipment a pre determined life as the electrics die years before the machine and cannot be repaired, so we all either continue to use iron or keep buying new.

Yep. I went full analog - ordered a Techsew 2600 yesterday.

[gottaknow]

On 9/20/2018 at 12:29 PM, R8R said:

I agree!

https://youtu.be/qryBuUxURvQ

Sewing is just now getting some true digital automation function that other industries have had for years. Even screen printing went through this about a decade ago. We had automation but digital automation took it to the next level. Being able to digitally set parameters and save them for repeat jobs is HUGE if your machine is there to make you money, and this kind of thing trickles down into lower priced machines later on.

 

Actually we’ve had digital automation for more than a decade in sewing factories. Brother has led the way. We make gloves which lend themselves to automation with lots of little components. It’s expensive up front, but the ROI is usually less than a year, often much faster. Most hobby sewers can’t drop 24k on a single machine though. 

Regards, Eric 

[chrisash]

Having owned and run a embroidery company for many years until last year, the computerised sewing machines can have 24 heads each with 15 different coloured needles and the 6 head machines can  have 3 heads doing one design whilst the other 3 do a separate design all at 1200 Stitch per min, just pure magic to listen to. if a thread breaks just that head stops to be sorted out then goes back 3-5 stitches and restarts

[R8R]

1 hour ago, chrisash said:

Having owned and run a embroidery company for many years until last year, the computerised sewing machines can have 24 heads each with 15 different coloured needles and the 6 head machines can  have 3 heads doing one design whilst the other 3 do a separate design all at 1200 Stitch per min, just pure magic to listen to. if a thread breaks just that head stops to be sorted out then goes back 3-5 stitches and restarts

I worked at a shop that was 50/50 embroidery/screenprinting. That place was a cacophony.

[R8R]

2 hours ago, gottaknow said:

Actually we’ve had digital automation for more than a decade in sewing factories. Brother has led the way. We make gloves which lend themselves to automation with lots of little components. It’s expensive up front, but the ROI is usually less than a year, often much faster. Most hobby sewers can’t drop 24k on a single machine though. 

Regards, Eric 

I think I meant it's finally getting ubiquitous, with touch panels right on the machines, NFC features, etc. You know, "smart" stuff.

Example the old guard in screen printing is M&R. Amazing machines, rock solid company. A few digitally controlled presses some years ago, but mostly for very high end shops. Other equipment manufacturers came in with automated features and touch panels, programmable temperature controls, job recall, production data downloads, etc. The whole industry stepped it up and now that kind of digital control is standard in many new machines.

But like sewing you can still buy a basic metal machine that will get the job done for years.

[R8R]

Ok I'm stumped.

The Techsew 2600 machine did not work out, it's on it's way back to them.

I'm looking machine that can do synchronous binding with a bit more "umph" than an average small cylinder machine that make up most dedicated synchronous binder designs. (335, etc)

Juki DSC-246 is a very good candidate but a new one is over $5k (if I can find it) and used ones are seemingly non-existent. There is a auto "-7" version on ebay but I don't really want or need trimmers and auto back-tacking etc. Also the -7 sacrifices some foot lift and a little capacity, and it would need a whole synchro kit added anyway.

Juki has discontinued the add-on binder kit for the LS-1341.

The binder kit for the LS-1342 might still be available but I can't find one of those machines, except for Penn Sew who have the auto -7 version, which does not accept the kit. (wtf Juki? sigh)

I can get the new LS-2342, and they make a binder kit for it, but it would be over $7k delivered and take months.

What I'm looking for is a cylinder arm machine that has a foot lift and max capacity somewhere similar to a Juki 1341, or 341, (16mm lift, 3/8" assemblies) that can "maybe" do synchronous binding, as I'll have some tight corners to do with both leather and heavy woven nylon bias tape. I am actually trying to use 1050 ballistic nylon cut on the bias as one binding option, and chrome tanned leather as another, (also marine fabrics as a third option)

I've wrestled with this off and on for quite awhile on my flat bed machine and nothing is satisfactory. I've also been out of town most of the year so now I'm home for a bit I was hoping to hit the ground running and make some final prototypes of these bags I'm working on, but the sewing world is being difficult.

 

Thoughts? Should I just go for a used Juki 341 and cobble a fixed binder plate to it with some scrap metal?

 

 

[chrisash]

Sometimes you can be so obsesed to use a design , that you fail to apply lateral thinking to overcome the faults you have identified with the present design, 

[Uwe]

The best heavy duty synchronized binder machine with a cylinder arm and enough "oomph" I've seen is the Durkopp Adler 205-370.  Kwok Hing still makes the 205 binder kit consisting of a KH205 binder and a KH205B support sheet (each around $100) and you can buy it directly from http://khsew.com 

Durkopp Adler stopped making the 205 a decade ago, but clone manufacturers still make and sell the DA 205-370 design. Cowboy 205-370 is one example for around $3,500. Some 205 clones lack the access hole on top of the arm that you need to install the binder. Here's a video of the Cowboy 205 binder setup:

I made an installation video for the 205 binder kit some time ago:

Here's my binding demo video with various materials:

 

Edited October 12, 2018 by Uwe

[R8R]

5 hours ago, Uwe said:

The best heavy duty synchronized binder machine with a cylinder arm and enough "oomph" I've seen is the Durkopp Adler 205-370. 

I considered it. Plenty of umph but what is the lightest a 205 will go to realistically? There may be too wide a gap of what my 2810 can do and what that a 205 can do.

[Uwe]

I managed to make my DA 205-370 sew reliably using size 90 Kevlar thread sewing a 2mm thick leather binding tape (1mm thick tape folded once). It also stepped from sewing just the tape up to the 10-14mm thick stack of material for actual binding and then back down to only the tape, all without adjustments. It wasn't easy but that's my real world experience of lower sewing limit and stepping up/down limit of the Durkopp Adler 205-370.

I think there's really a fair amount of capability overlap instead of a gap between the Juki 2810 and the DA 205-370.

[R8R]

7 minutes ago, Uwe said:

I think there's really a fair amount of capability overlap instead of a gap between the Juki 2810 and the DA 205-370.

Hmmm...

And I could easily step down to a small swing away on the 2810 if I needed to do any thinner binding with 69 thread or less. It's the bigger/thicker binding that I can't find a solution for.

Hmmm...

And I'd have a 205 for anything the upper limit of the 2810 could not manage.

Hmmm...

[JJN]

@R8R, I am curious about your experience with the Techsew 2600. You said you were not happy with it, not enough umph. The specs show maximum thread as 138. You are considering a Juki DSC-246 and from my searching is limited to 92 thread. What range of capacities are you looking for. I ask because I am looking for a binder for my Juki 1341.

[R8R]

2 hours ago, JJN said:

@R8R, I am curious about your experience with the Techsew 2600. You said you were not happy with it, not enough umph. The specs show maximum thread as 138. You are considering a Juki DSC-246 and from my searching is limited to 92 thread. What range of capacities are you looking for. I ask because I am looking for a binder for my Juki 1341.

The Techsew 2600 actually sewed what I needed it to sew - thick binding with 92 thread. The synchro binder worked well. Not sure if it would handle 138 well. Maybe, but I didn't get that far with it. 

I returned it for other reasons, of which I won't speak of here, I am still waiting for this transaction to be resolved.

 

In my experience Juki is conservative with their specs so I bet the genuine 246 would handle 138 with a little tweaking. It's still in my short list of machines if I can find a decent used one. New, it's too close in price to some other nice really machines.

 

For the 1341 - you are looking at a custom solution or ordering their fixed binder attachment. The OEM synchro attachment kit is no longer an option.

[R8R]

Ok and just to make it all more complicated, I am looking at the DA 669 Eco. Dammit.

[R8R]

And then Hightex (Cowboy) went and posted this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hSvDOyIgFQ

 

 

Hmm.

[JJN]

Interesting. They call this a Cowbow CB6500 medium to heavy sewing machine. It looks exactly like a Juki LS-1341. That binder is not synchronized, just bolted to a metal plate. I looked at the specs and they list maximum thread as 277 but the needle range is 20-24. I think a 277 thread needs a 25-28 needle, doesn't it? I don't have any personal experience in this range of thread. It must be fairly new as Cowboysew posted the video 3 days ago. Maybe one of the Cowboy dealers can comment here.