Using life-eye needles with 'roo lace

[Dan Hammons]

Does any one else have trouble getting the life eye needles to catch hold of roo lace ? Driving me crazier than i was .Thanks Dan

[pepin1948]

Yes, not just to grip, but to stay in. I find it's because roo lace is stretchier, and pulls out much easier.

[braider]

Greetings... I use life eye needles a lot, but, I'm not very familiar with roo. You could either go to a smaller needle or try screwing two ends into the needle at once. Or, I bend an inch or so back and point the double end - same difference as using two ends. Maybe use a different kind of leather for the second point. ...Dave

Edited August 24, 2006 by braider

[Johanna]

I always cut it with a knife into a triangular shape and screw it in. I've never had a problem with 'roo- in fact I like it almost as well as goat. It seems the cowhide lacing has more fibers that grip, so you need a longer ---->>>> point on the lace for a lifeeye with smooth leather lacing like roo or goat.

Speaking of lifeyes, my favorite lacing needle, sharpen them and your lacing will go much quicker. I will strop mine every now and then, because they do pick up anything gummy like cement or glue while working.

Johanna

[Dan Hammons]

Hi all , I have found something that works also. I cut the end like Johanna does and then wet the lace just alittle (mouth) and then rolled it with my fingers tight. The compression did the trick.Well it worked every time for me anyway.Thanks all for the advice Dan

[The Major]

Another thing to consider when using roo or goat lace is its stretch. Most of the better roo/goat laces out there need to be stretched before use. Or if they are stretched they are stretched too much.

Especially if you cut it yourself.

You stretch it until there is about 2 inches of stretch in the piece. Now lubricate the lace with white saddle soap or parrafin wax and braid away. When those start to dry out, it will draw your braid nice and tight. This helps reduce the risk of a break from over stretch.

[Gregory B. Moody]

My question is why you are wanting to use the Lifeeye needle ?

I have seen lots of people who had problems getting them to work well for them...

Have you tried the hook and eye ?

That change of direction through the eye takes the torque... so the two prongs don't have to do any work except keep the end down out of the way... Greg

[Johanna]

I do not like hook & eye needles because they tear up my hands, especially when lacing anything more complicated than a checkbook. They bend and break, and cannot stand the force (or the pliers) when buckstitching or going through several layers of leather. They are dull, and don't sharpen well, so they have to be aimed at the holes dead-on.

I was taught never to let go of the needle (to prevent twists in the lace) and a pronged needle is great for beginners because it is flat, and easy to keep in the same direction. After a few hundred miles of lacing or stitching, most new leatherworkers graduate to a life eye needle because they are longer, more efficient, and will not come undone at inopportune moments. Tandy includes the pronged needles in their kits because they are cheaper, not because they are a better needle.

That is nothing more than my experience and opinion, and that doesn't mean another leather worker wouldn't be happier with a pronged needle- I just happen to hate them because they hurt my hands, especially if it is a project requiring some strength to get the needle through the layers. Everyone should try both kinds, and decide what works best for them. There is no "right" or "wrong" in leathercraft, as long as the finished work functions properly and looks like it is supposed to.

Johanna

[Gregory B. Moody]

Johanna,

Ok , lets back up... Do you have a fid and use it ? There should be a proper hole before you stick the needle in... it is only made to steer the lace where it needs to go...and if you have a good hole I have even used a lacquer dipped end of the lace for some things...( but I digress....) I have seen hook and eye needles last 10 years... not the two pronged... not suggesting them for anything since the physics of that turn through the hole are what make the hook and eye good design.

If you are using pliers to pull the lace through you have not constructed your hole properly... and that will make lacing unpleasant with any needle...

"I was taught never to let go of the needle" .... But I can show you the proper way... you only just now asked... LOL

The trick is that when you go through on normal double cordovan you only hold onto the needle until you get it far enough to loop back towards you ... then you place the needle between your first and second fingers pointed towards where it will be going next... and you use your first finger and thumb to pull the lace on through the hole.. I can do an entire billfold without ever having to straighten the lace... and it is not hard...

Yall are the ones complaining about the needles which require the threads inside them to hold... you put them together with the lace in compression and then it is likely to let go when the force put on it is in the stretching mode... That is taken care of by the hook and eye needle... the two pronged needles ( which lack the hole ) are junk... LOL

Everyone should try my method first because it is likely to work just fine and save the cost of other tools... and sore hands....LOL ... Greg

[The Major]

The trick is that when you go through on normal double cordovan you only hold onto the needle until you get it far enough to loop back towards you ... then you place the needle between your first and second fingers pointed towards where it will be going next... and you use your first finger and thumb to pull the lace on through the hole.. I can do an entire billfold without ever having to straighten the lace... and it is not hard...

Everyone should try my method first because it is likely to work just fine and save the cost of other tools... and sore hands....LOL ... Greg

I was beginning to think I was the only one lacing this way. It sure does make short work of it. This way everything is right there, no need to search for the needle and make sure its straight. Lacing seems to go much quicker this way too.

Its funny, I actually had someone tell me once this method wont work. LOL Half hour later I was explaining it to them.

[Gregory B. Moody]

"It sure does make short work of it. "

I used to be able to lace a billfold in 30 minutes , including the one splice half way around to keep the lace from getting fuzzy on the backside, WHiLE WATCHING TV.... you only have to glance down at the point where the needle has to choose a hole or cross... so it does not take away from TV watching AT ALL.... LOL

Greg

[braider]

I cannot understand how anybody can suggest or defend using those archaic hook and eye needles. In my opinion, the threaded needles are better in every way. They are faster, more secure, easier to work with, and last longer. I file them to a point of my chosing and subsequently have no need for a fid. ...Dave

[Gregory B. Moody]

UH.... Did you see the first post in this thread ?

My father was a Tandy manager for 5 years... once we taught people to simple push down on the prong instead of beating it into submission everyone loved the hook and eye needles...

Sometimes if something has survived long enough to be considered ' archaic ' it was because it worked for a long time... Greg

I cannot understand how anybody can suggest or defend using those archaic hook and eye needles. In my opinion, the threaded needles are better in every way. They are faster, more secure, easier to work with, and last longer. I file them to a point of my chosing and subsequently have no need for a fid. ...Dave

[Johanna]

I'm with Dave on this one. A sharpened LifeEye needle means you don't need a fid. (A fid is like a dull awl, if anyone doesn't know. It's used for opening or lining up the stitching holes.) I was a Tandy manager for five years, and I can't remember anyone we ever showed how to use a LifeEye needle going back to using kit needles again. When you are teaching a new student, and they twist the lace, it is easy to unscrew the lace, pull out the stitches, and screw the lace back in.

For what it's worth- If a piece of lace ever should break off inside a LifeEye needle, hold it with a pair of pliers and burn the leather out. The needle will get very hot, but it doesn't hurt anything, and your needle can be saved.

The reason Roo lace wants to slip out is because it's an RCH thinner and a little smoother than goat, and won't expose its fibers when cut like calf. I think kangaroo has the most stretch of all, but I like the way it looks and feels over calf, and is probably worth paying a little more for than calf.

Hey, Shawn, why don't you start a thread about making your own lace instead of buying it on a spool? I know it would be more cost effective, but I can never get my lace to look right. In 1996 I went to Fort Worth for "orientation", which included a three day tour of the Tandy factories on Eversman Parkway. Tandy lace was still being manufactured in-house and I was mesmerized watching the women work. They were efficient and friendly, and had big callouses. I wonder how many miles of lace they made?

Johanna

[Gregory B. Moody]

I received a complaint about my answers in this thread so I am going to be more complete in my composing...

I was asked what my father being a Tandy manager when I was a teenager had to do with anything... I worked most saturdays at the store because both my parents worked there... We got things like rivets and snaps by gross packages and I am the one that counted them out into dozens and stapled the glassine bags together.. I also spent most of the summer with my father when he went around to Texas Hill Country summer camps doing demonstrations on carving and any other leatherworking questions that were asked...

So those the first two posts at the beginning of this thread are only the latest of many years of hearing complaints about thread dependant lacing needles...

People have problems with those needles because screw threads were designed for keeping harder materials together... metal to metal, metal to wood, wood to wood... and the size of the area available for making the threads can aggravate the situation even more... people are going to have problems with anything which requires expertise in judging exactly what taper to cut the spongy lace .....

As compared to the obvious friction created by the change of direction the lace is required to go through with the hook and eye needle... this is the same principal which keeps knots tied... a combination of change of direction creating enough friction to keep the cord in place.

"I do not like hook & eye needles because they tear up my hands, especially when lacing anything more complicated than a checkbook. They bend and break, and cannot stand the force (or the pliers) when buckstitching or going through several layers of leather. They are dull, and don't sharpen well, so they have to be aimed at the holes dead-on. "---Johanna

I assumed by saying that the holes were not properly made that the connection with tearing up your hands would be made by readers... but it was not... so I will rephrase ... A lacing needle is not made to be used like a sewing needle.. the idea that it would ever be bent , broken, or need to be sharpened means that the hole was not properly opened up...

" I was a Tandy manager for five years, and I can't remember anyone we ever showed how to use a LifeEye needle going back to using kit needles again. When you are teaching a new student, and they twist the lace, it is easy to unscrew the lace, pull out the stitches, and screw the lace back in. "--Johanna

I do not know what needles they put into the kits you are referring to... if they did not put the hook and eye then they were shooting themselves in the foot....

When you were teaching those students you did not show them how to avoid twisting the thread by the method which I have described... so that ability to unscrew the lace was only necessary because they did not know how to avoid twisting in the first place... which of course is the time and frustration saving method out of the two...

A fid is a dull Flat awl... you can not expect all the holes you punch in a soft spongy material like mulitiple layers of leather to still be as open as when you punched them.... As soon as you think you need something like pliers to pull on a lacing needle it means the hole is not open enough.. Sore fingers , broken needles , bent needles..... all a thing of the past when care is exercised in making sure the holes are correct at the time you get to them...

I am not sure any needle will work well on what I usually think of buckstitching... but a hole opened up with a fid will allow a sharpened end to go far enough to be pulled on through without a needle attached...

[Johanna]

This is the inside of my purse. It was done with a Life Eye and a pair of pliers, and I didn't have enough strength to do it, and it wasn't because of the holes. My husband had to do it for me. That's not exactly a buckstitch. but it goes through 8/9 oz leather, a soft goatskin liner and the heavy upholstery grade leather bottom. This is a modified pattern from the old jean bag kit Tandy used to sell, for anyone interested. I love this purse because the braided strap never snags my hair, even when it's down, and it's long enough to wear on the opposite shoulder, like when I am on the back on a bike. It's also deep enough to pack a book and a lunch. LOL

Johanna

[whinewine]

I don't like the life-eye needles for standard, flat lacing, simply because the needles are much bigger than lacing slits. I prefer the flat needles, and yes, they are a PITA. However, for me, the flat needles go in much easier. (I have my own system of not letting go of the lace- I put the needle between my teeth while I pull the lacing taut.)

I use only the larger life-eyes (or Perma-loks, as they are now known) for the latigo- type laces; however, the smaller ones I do use for the round 2mm lacing.

Something that works for me is to dip the cut tip of the lace into fly head cement & let dry before screwing it on to the lace. It stiffens the tip which helps it to screw onto the life-eye & seems to help prevent the lace from pulling out of the life-eye as easily & also helps to prevent the lace from breaking off at the needle.