Is there standard for twin needle machines?

[katit]

My question is about distance between needles. I assume it's fixed. I read in topic nearby about some machine with 14mm between needles. Out of curiosity I pulled PFAFF 1246 web page but the number is not anywhere. Not in manual. Now on web page. Is it possible it's adjustable?

So, what IS the standard distance for let's say automotive upholstery?

And is it easy to change it on let's say Singer 111 variants of twin-needle machine?

[brmax]

Its called gauge from my best recollection, the between needle distance jargon.  In an older singer as you mention or a 212 its relatively easy, if the parts are available. 

I believe they did design these around products, in my opinion. 

 

Floyd

[katit]

I see. So, if I do want to experiment and get my hands on one of those - unless "gauge" is what I need - it's probably useless machine, correct?

[brmax]

It is an adjustment thats requires both hooks to be reset, this being the change of the saddle position along its machined way. 

So ya its not a today this gauge/ distance and tommorow another. For myself anyway others maybe, but unlikely. For sure it takes a lot of time. There are a few here that could accomplish this daily. 

The older ones typically have one needle bar, some newer ones have seperate needle bars. In that its totally out of my pay or interest grade. Changing this needle gauge width may have been a real pursuit long ago for me. If with something in the 1/2” or 14mm long ago if the parts were there. They were not. 

 

Floyd

Edited March 7, 2019 by brmax

[councilman24]

3 hours ago, katit said:

I see. So, if I do want to experiment and get my hands on one of those - unless "gauge" is what I need - it's probably useless machine, correct?

No, on a 212 singer it"s not that hard.  When I got mine in the mail both hooks were loose and no where near set up.  Took 2 to 3 hours with a good manual to set the hooks, the first time I ever moved a hook.   Bought a new gauge set and changed it for the first time to a new gauge in an hour or two, again the first time I did it.  With a good manual.  Parts are widely available.  I haven't worked with other than 212 singer series. But if you find a good one of those at a good price buy it no matter what the gauge.  You likely will want more than one gauge anyway.  Yes it's more convenient to have one in each gauge you want.  But if you use one for an occasional project and mostly at one gauge it's not that hard to change.  Assuming some medium mechanical ability.  Especially if you've timed machine and adjusted hook clearances before.  If you can't change your watch battery or the oil in your car then maybe changing one isn't for you.

In fact I need to go down stairs and change mine from 1/4 to 3/16.  I expect it to take an hour.  With interruptions maybe 2 hours.

[councilman24]

1 hour ago, brmax said:

It is an adjustment thats requires both hooks to be reset, this being the change of the saddle position along its machined way. 

So ya its not a today this gauge/ distance and tommorow another. For myself anyway others maybe, but unlikely. For sure it takes a lot of time. There are a few here that could accomplish this daily. 

The older ones typically have one needle bar, some newer ones have seperate needle bars. In that its totally out of my pay or interest grade. Changing this needle gauge width may have been a real pursuit long ago for me. If with something in the 1/2” or 14mm long ago if the parts were there. They were not. 

 

Floyd

It just really isn't that hard.  Some of the first detailed sewing machine adjustment I did.  But takes a good manual and an understanding of the adjustments needed.  Try it for fun.

[councilman24]

BTW I am not a sewing machine mechanic.  I had to learn how to work on mine because I own 20 industrial machines and no mechanic nearby. Becoming a mediocre machine mechanic based on need.  But this change of gauge isn't really that hard.  they are meant to be changed in the field.

[katit]

The way you guys explain it - makes total sense and I'm not scared of changing gauge set at all. I just did complete overhaul of similar single needle walking foot machine along with setting timing, hook, etc. So I get it. Most likely I will need only one gauge for what I want to do (car upholstery)

Machine I will be looking at looks exactly as Singer 168w101 but it's got 2 needle. It's a post bed machine. My main problem/fear is that I won't be able to buy/find gauge set needed. I looked at machine very briefly, didn't recognize model # but it did look like 1/2 inch between needles which is little too much for what I need. So, if you know what that machine is and if it's using same gauge sets as any other similar Singer's...

[councilman24]

15 minutes ago, katit said:

The way you guys explain it - makes total sense and I'm not scared of changing gauge set at all. I just did complete overhaul of similar single needle walking foot machine along with setting timing, hook, etc. So I get it. Most likely I will need only one gauge for what I want to do (car upholstery)

Machine I will be looking at looks exactly as Singer 168w101 but it's got 2 needle. It's a post bed machine. My main problem/fear is that I won't be able to buy/find gauge set needed. I looked at machine very briefly, didn't recognize model # but it did look like 1/2 inch between needles which is little too much for what I need. So, if you know what that machine is and if it's using same gauge sets as any other similar Singer's...

Ebay.    Or Henderson

[Constabulary]

When it comes to 2 needle machines Singer 212 / 112 based needle feed machines (like Consew, Seiko, Juki...) are the best / most economic choice for Hobbyists / small businesses because the gauge sets are cheap and available almost everywhere, even on Ebay.  Adler & Pfaff are using different gauge sets and cost a lot more.

For any needle distance you always need 4 parts: needle holder, needle plate, feed dog and presser foot or presser feet if you have a walking foot machine instead of "plain" needle feed machine

College Sewing in the UK is a good source if you live in the EU:

https://www.college-sewing.co.uk/industrial-sewing-machine-gauge-parts/

You can even convert the Singer 112 / 212 based machines in to split needle machines

 

 

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

For French seams on auto trim and furniture 3/8" needle gauge (needle spacing) is by far most common.  

Garment textile is most commonly 1/4", think of blue jeans.

Keep in mind, these are what is most common, and is by no means a standard or rule.  

Edited March 8, 2019 by Gregg From Keystone Sewing
info@keysew.com

[katit]

Yes, 3/8 or 10mm sounds about right. I have 5mm guide feet and accomplish french seams with those which very close to what's needed. I think depending on car it might be little smaller.

In any case - I will try to get machine if it all works otherwise. Main point - gauge sets can be found/obtained if needed.

Thanks you all!

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

5 hours ago, katit said:

Yes, 3/8 or 10mm sounds about right. I have 5mm guide feet and accomplish french seams with those which very close to what's needed. I think depending on car it might be little smaller.

In any case - I will try to get machine if it all works otherwise. Main point - gauge sets can be found/obtained if needed.

Thanks you all!

Be careful if the gauge is not what you are looking for; a gauge set that would be a presser feet set, needle clamp, feed dog and throat plate can be BIG money if you have to obtain these parts from Pfaff.  Easily hundreds of dollars.  I'm not aware of any generic.

And, as for changing gauge, it's not that easy, unless you are comfortable changing critical machine settings like hook timing, needle bar height and distance to and from the hook to needle.

Hope this helps with making you decision.      

[katit]

27 minutes ago, Gregg From Keystone Sewing said:

Be careful if the gauge is not what you are looking for; a gauge set that would be a presser feet set, needle clamp, feed dog and throat plate can be BIG money if you have to obtain these parts from Pfaff.  Easily hundreds of dollars.  I'm not aware of any generic.

And, as for changing gauge, it's not that easy, unless you are comfortable changing critical machine settings like hook timing, needle bar height and distance to and from the hook to needle.

Hope this helps with making you decision.      

Gregg,

This is not PFAFF. Machine I will be looking at looks exactly as Singer 168w101 but it's got 2 needle. It's a post bed machine. Hopefully this one is not hard to find?

As far as mechanicals - I think I will be fine. I did change time belt and completely retimed Consew 226R so I understand basics of those things.

[Constabulary]

Double needle post bed machines are a whole different story. We have been talking about flat bed machines. The gauge sets mentioned above do not fit for post bed machines as the feed dog and needle plates are different.

[Wizcrafts]

9 hours ago, katit said:

Gregg,

This is not PFAFF. Machine I will be looking at looks exactly as Singer 168w101 but it's got 2 needle. It's a post bed machine. Hopefully this one is not hard to find?

What brand and model is your post machine?

[katit]

I didn’t pick it up yet. It is Singer, black. Looks exactly as 168w101 walking foot post bed but 2 needle. I don’t know model number but I guess it’s from the same time. It’s the same seller who I got 168w101 from

 

[Wizcrafts]

On the post machines, I believe you move the posts apart when you change the needle spacing. This will be tricky and may not even be doable if the needle bar or clamp cannot be changed. This is old tech.

[katit]

I barely remember how it looks, but it didn’t seem like posts were separate visually. It was just one wider post

 I hope someone experienced with those machines can chime in 

[brmax]

Its best to get a model number from the post bed machine. In looking back in varoius post. It seems interesting to find out if the machine has some of the nice features like stitch length regulation, and wheel or walking foot. Additionally of course the general wear and noise.  

 

Have a good day

Floyd

[katit]

Stopped by and checked those machines in person. My bad, they looked like walking foot but they are not? 

1. Machine with laaarge post is 138WSV102HP. Seem to be complete and gauge looks right at ~1/3. This one also does look like walking foot.

2. Machine with smaller post is 138W101

3. Machine with single needle all complete/working 17-30

 

#1-2 is of interest to sew French seams in out of shape places, etc. Seems like machines of the same breed, however feet's look different and they are not walking foot.

#3 is interesting because I can really get into any places I want with it. What is stich size and thickness capabilities? Is that a great machine? Guy used to be shoemaker and he really likes machine.

 

Question is: What are those machines capabilities? I need to do about 6-8oz at most (2-3 layers of upholstery leather). Will they do it without walking foot? They look heavy duty but without walking foot, strange?

Another question: Will I be able to get parts for those machines? Like gauge sets? Seconds machine does not have bobbin cover and hook, but those are standard..

Last question: Pretending they all were working when taken out of production and just covered in old dust/grime, what is fair/cheap market value? I want to make sure I can sell it quickly after I'm done.

 

 

 

Edited March 10, 2019 by katit

[Wizcrafts]

The non-walking foot machine was likely used to sew chrome tanned shoe uppers that don't have much drag. The teeth on the bottom really dig into the flesh side. If the original owner used small needles and thread, there wouldn't be much foot pressure required, making easy to feed shoe leather through it.

Machines like the above will not be as good with veg-tan leather and thicker thread/bigger needles. You will be fighting to hold the leather down to avoid skipped stitches. But, if you are sewing seat covers and they aren't grabby on top, you should be good to go, with #92 thread and a #19 or 20 needle. It really depends on how the hooks are built and set from the needles. They may or may not allow #138 thread to pass around them. Plus, the throat plate holes, or feed dog holes must be large enough to clear #23 needles to use #138 thread.

[Wizcrafts]

As for changing the gauges on the Singer post machines, there was a topic about this as recently as March, 2018. Bob Kovar (@CowboyBob) found compatible parts in a catalog for the 138, but it required changing the needle bar before they would go on.

[Wizcrafts]

Here is a link to a pdf for the Singer 138w101 post bed machines.

[katit]

I think machine #1 is walking foot, second picture shows it.. and it’s correct gauge. 

Do you know what WSV in a middle means?

HP at the end looks like “high post”

Do you have any idea what is a good price for such machine will be?

 

thanks a lot for all the info!! I really appreciate it