Finished a wallet with my creasing tool

[Wayne0820]

It has been 4 years since my last project. I got my new creasing machine, so I tried it and made a wallet for my wife. I set the temperature to 180℃ and it creased nicely on Horween Chromexcel. I tested 250℃, the leather will get burned. It seems around 200℃ is the best temperature. I also tried to use the creasing tool to smooth the edge painting, 220℃ worked very well. However, I didn't spend too much time to polish the edge considering we will use the wallet ourselves...

The electric creasing tool works very well to me. If anyone is interested in it, please visit my store on Etsy: https://www.etsy.com/shop/YUCraftPro

[chrisash]

Why do you lie on your etsy adverts giving the impression the whole package is £47 when in reality it is over £236, to me this indicates a rather dishonest selling aproach and makes me wonder about the quality

[Tugadude]

When I clicked on the website what I saw was in USD and it said $60.00 + and free shipping to the U.S.  Sorry, Chrisash, but that is somewhat common on Etsy and even ebay.  They list the cheapest item and then you choose what other items you want.  For example, the beginner kit was $298.00.  

I looked at Chinese pricking irons several times and many of the providers did the same thing.  They might say $7.98 and show a full set of irons, but when you click the drop-down menu it shows all of the configurations of sets, individual irons, etc.  The $7.98 might be for one iron.  Sure, you could argue that if they show a full set and you look over and see $7.98 it is misleading, but if many sites do it, you get used to the idea and understand that it is not necessarily for what is shown.

Calling it a lie is a bit harsh.  I always cringe when folks do this in an open forum.  Maybe next time you could PM the seller?  If you have a legitimate concern then maybe he/she will change the ad.

Just a thought.

[alpha2]

What tugadude said. Not everyone wants the whole set. I had no trouble reading the ad. There are two different heating units shown, obviously someone could mix the less expensive unit with a couple tips to get started, then buy individual ones later. If it were possible to buy all of the tips as a set, I wouldn't expect to pay $15.00 for them! 

[kgg]

2 hours ago, Tugadude said:

Calling it a lie is a bit harsh.  I always cringe when folks do this in an open forum.  Maybe next time you could PM the seller?  If you have a legitimate concern then maybe he/she will change the ad.

I agree with Tugadude. The word "lie" is really over the line for me as well, particularly on an open form. It just conjures up to many negative impressions. 

kgg

[mikesc]

Maybe Chris means this page..?
https://www.etsy.com/listing/679487750/electric-leather-creaser-edge-creaser?ref=related-1

where it says ..

Electric leather creaser, Edge creaser, Edge control, Leather soldering iron, Iron tip, Accurate Temperature Control, Leather tool
Message Seller

€68.87+ vat
"Item details..

including"(including Transformer and Accurate Digital Temperature Controller)
Item details

Handmade Supply
Materials

hardwood, aluminum, brass, stainless steel
=============================
★★ Creaser Machine ★★
=============================
(including Transformer and Accurate Digital Temperature Controller)
• Input: 100-240V AC
• Output: 24V DC, which is safe to operate.
• Power: 60W, max 100W.

Note the (including Transformer and Accurate Digital Temperature Controller)..for €68.87+ vat
yes there is a drop down..but
in the UK and the EU countries..this ad would be illegal and the owner could be prosecuted under the various laws governing deceptive / illegal advertising..
Because "everyone does it on Etsy"..doesn't make it right..nor legal to be displayed like that in the UK or the EU..

I'd also be curious about the +VAT ( averages around 20% extra in the UK and EU ) ..because in order to charge VAT, one has to be VAT registered..and to show that registration number at the bottom ( or top ) of every page..of the ad or the site..not to do so is illegal..under international laws agreed with the EU , not just EU law..If a US business or individual wants to charge VAT to an EU customer, they must show the VAT number and be registered for VAT..
So..who is chargeing the VAT..where is that extra 20% going..who to..under the international agreements ( with the USA included ) if VAT is charged, the business that is charging it has to then send it onwards to VAT authority in the Country that the customer is in..In Chris's case that would be HM Customs and Excise..

If I or any other EU based business ran that ad..I'd expect to be prosecuted over it..for the misleading description of what one gets for the €68.87 ( the ad clearly says that you get "included" the transformer and temperature controller ) ..and ( if I wasn't registered for VAT and thus was not showing a VAT number ) also have the VAT authorities prosecuting me for claiming VAT without being registered for VAT..The VAT guys, being part of the Customs system..are really ones that you do not want to mess with..like in the USA..

ps..VAT is paid on the cost of the item ( without VAT ) plus the shipping, plus the customs rate that might apply( might be a % rate of anything, from 2% to 20% given that Regad etc already make similar in The EU ) ..you add all of them up..and then charge VAT ( at whatever rate applies, usually 20% on top of whatever was the total of item+shipping+ customs ) at the end..you can't charge VAT before you charge shipping..which this ad also does..The page shows me the item at €68.87+VAT , so €82,64 total ( inc VAT ) and then tells me it would be an additional €45.00 euros for shipping..VAT is always after everything else has been totalled..never somewhere in the middle of the calculation, and not before shipping..

Edited April 22, 2019 by mikesc

[Tugadude]

Mike, I don't sell in the EU so I have no idea if what you say is correct or not.  I will assume you are correct.  When I cut and paste that address you provided it pulls up USD, not Euros, so maybe it knows where I'm at and changes the currency.  For me it came up $75.00 +.  

My main issue was calling the seller a liar.  I don't care what country you are in, that is poor form.  Why not say the ad is misleading?  I would have partly agreed with that.  I say partly because as I said, I see these ads all the time and I know what the little + sign means.

A little decency goes a long way.  Sadly we seem bereft of it in some quarters these days.

[mikesc]

I agree "liar" is harsh..misleading would have been a better way to describe the ad..
It may well be that this is down to Etsy's "back end" and their ad placing system not being clear about what gets shown outside of the USA..

Depending on where we are, we do not see the same Etsy..nor the same "whatever site".."Geo targeting"..easy to code for ..
Maybe it is Etsy that are charging VAT ?If it is them doing "the billing" they are big enough to be required to charge EU citizens VAT.. in which case they , Etsy, are still at fault for not having made it clear on the ad page that they are doing the billing, and for not having their VAT number clearly on the ad page, as EU law requires them to..

Confession..I've never used Etsy..Neither as a seller, nor a buyer..

Edited April 22, 2019 by mikesc

[Wayne0820]

7 hours ago, chrisash said:

Why do you lie on your etsy adverts giving the impression the whole package is £47 when in reality it is over £236, to me this indicates a rather dishonest selling aproach and makes me wonder about the quality

Chrisash, someone wants a whole set, but someone not. So I list different options, and of course the price is different. Etsy automatically display the option of lowest price, it's not something I can choose. I'm not sure if you do online shoppings, but a lot of online stores have the same price strategy: showing the lowest opitonal price, such as Etsy, Ebay, Amazon. I'm wondering if you want to call all sellers on these websites lier....

Actually this price stategy does NOT do anything good to me. Because anyone who finally decide to buy a set will definitely know the price. I would rather like to show the set price. I just don't want to set webpages for every single options. 

[mikesc]

Wayne..I would suggest that if you do have the option in the Etsy system of doing a single page per item, that you do so..Because as it stands it makes your ad in contravention of many EU laws( and it shows to EU residents *) even if it is Etsy's fault..
If they ( Etsy ) get complaints from the EU about it, Etsy, being a "faceless" corp might shut your account rather than make their own "back end " complaint..

The difference with Amazon and Ebay is that on the pages displayed in the EU..they do not say" including"..for items which "optional" and which are not "included" in the Price shown on the page without clicking the "drop-downs"..

*Maybe you could restrict it to not show in the EU? ,But that would deprive you of potential customers, 3rd party shopping platform's shopping cart systems can potentially get you into a heap of trouble, ( especially if using them to sell internationally, you can fall foul of rules and laws that you've never heard of and seriously cannot be expected to know ) and it is never "their fault"..

Edited April 22, 2019 by mikesc

[Wayne0820]

57 minutes ago, mikesc said:

Note the (including Transformer and Accurate Digital Temperature Controller)..for €68.87+ vat
yes there is a drop down..but
in the UK and the EU countries..this ad would be illegal and the owner could be prosecuted under the various laws governing deceptive / illegal advertising..
Because "everyone does it on Etsy"..doesn't make it right..nor legal to be displayed like that in the UK or the EU..

I'd also be curious about the +VAT ( averages around 20% extra in the UK and EU ) ..because in order to charge VAT, one has to be VAT registered..and to show that registration number at the bottom ( or top ) of every page..of the ad or the site..not to do so is illegal..under international laws agreed with the EU , not just EU law..If a US business or individual wants to charge VAT to an EU customer, they must show the VAT number and be registered for VAT..
So..who is chargeing the VAT..where is that extra 20% going..who to..under the international agreements ( with the USA included ) if VAT is charged, the business that is charging it has to then send it onwards to VAT authority in the Country that the customer is in..In Chris's case that would be HM Customs and Excise..

If I or any other EU based business ran that ad..I'd expect to be prosecuted over it..for the misleading description of what one gets for the €68.87 ( the ad clearly says that you get "included" the transformer and temperature controller ) ..and also have the VAT authorities prosecuting me for claiming VAT without being registered for VAT..The VAT guys, being part of the Customs system..are really ones that you do not want to mess with..like in the USA..

Different options share the same details dercription, Etsy doesn't provide the function to set different decription. Ebay is a little bit better, it allow seller set dedicated picture for each option.

If it does mislead browers, I'm sorry for that but it's not something I want.

Regarding to VAT, I did nothing to VAT. I just set a price in USD. Etsy will know where the brower comes from, and changes the  currency correspondingly, then maybe some additional fee is added. But it is not me who set the VAT. Actually it's the first time I heard VAT.

[Wayne0820]

17 minutes ago, mikesc said:

Wayne..I would suggest that if you do have the option in the Etsy system of doing a single page per item, that you do so..Because as it stands it makes your ad in contravention of many EU laws( and it shows to EU residents *) even if it is Etsy's fault..
If they ( Etsy ) get complaints from the EU about it, Etsy, being a "faceless" corp might shut your account rather than make their own "back end " complaint..

The difference with Amazon and Ebay is that on the pages displayed in the EU..they do not say" including"..for items which "optional" and which are not "included" in the Price shown on the page without clicking the "drop-downs"..

*Maybe you could restrict it to not show in the EU? ,But that would deprive you of potential customers, 3rd party shopping platform's shopping cart systems can potentially get you into a heap of trouble, ( especially if using them to sell internationally, you can fall foul of rules and laws that you've never heard of and seriously cannot be expected to know ) and it is never "their fault"..

Thank you Mike, I will take your suggestion!

[mikesc]

While we are here, you might also look into getting your own small site up and running, not via "wix" or any of those platforms that require a visitor to accept a zillion and one tracking scripts..but a simple responsive site with a page per item and contact and home, privacy etc..

Most of the hosting companies in the USA ( such as Godadday or Hostgator ) etc offer basic cheap packs for a few dollars per month..go for packs with cpanel ( easy to use admin panel ) if they have something like "scriptalicious" , they will let you install free shopping site software ( I always recommend prestashop ) very easy to understand..and it comes with free* "plug in" cart systems to accept credit cards ( if you are a business your bank will probably have a "merchant module" that will plug in to it..you can plug in "stripe" or similar, ( beware of paypal, they can keep your money at the drop of a hat ) and you'll keep more of the money that your items sell for, than you will using Etsy and other 3rd party selling platforms.. Cpanel will also let you do a "one click" install of "letsencrypt", which is a free SSL cert..Which gets you the https..

*prestahop (like all the other shopping systems, magento, woocommerce etc ) also has modules etc that you can buy, but the free modules work perfectly well for 99% of all online businesses

Edited April 22, 2019 by mikesc

[mikesc]

Regarding to VAT, I did nothing to VAT. I just set a price in USD. Etsy will know where the brower comes from, and changes the currency correspondingly, then maybe some additional fee is added. But it is not me who set the VAT. Actually it's the first time I heard VAT.

Yep..I thought it might be Etsy adding VAT..They can ( and are respecting EU and USA agreements in doing so, but they are not doing so correctly, they must show their VAT number on the ad page ) not your fault at all..

It does make your items 20% more expensive to EU residents..But..do not drop your prices by 20% to EU residents to compensate, those of us who are VAT registered can claim back the VAT from our country's VAT authorities..and those in the EU who are not VAT registered are used to paying VAT, except when they buy from Ebay or Amazon sellers ( from all over the world ) who hardly ever charge VAT to EU buyers, and Amazon and Ebay don't add it on, ( they should, but they play "tax jurisdiction games" ) so as to not do so..Which is a major gripe of EU based businesses vis a vis Amazon and Ebay..

Edited April 22, 2019 by mikesc

[NVLeatherWorx]

Regardless of who is adding the VAT or what some may think a business operator on Etsy (or anywhere else for that matter) should do to set their shop us it all comes down to one thing and that is:  the operator of a business has the sole right to determine HOW they are going to operate, WHAT system they will operate on, and the METHOD of how they are going to list their items and other such information.  It is not for any one of us to tell another how to run their business and the issue of VAT or any other foreign taxes are often determined by the host of the shop (in this case Etsy) and not always the shop owner.  Being as Etsy does what they do in their model I do not sell to International customers and that is because of the way Etsy pushes their weight around the globe.  I also don't do it because the International customer always has a gripe about the cost of shipping and the customs/import duties that always go with such purchases and those too are beyond my control so, to keep myself out of having to listen to the constant whining about the things that I have nothing to do with I steer clear of the whole "global economy" thing and keep it local.

If Etsy wan't to put the VAT thing in your face just because a U.S. seller has decided to give the overseas customer an option to buy their item then you should address the issue with Etsy and not the seller.  Etsy will collect VAT on such sales and they do report and make payment to the appropriate tax agency as outlined in their rules.  In fact, they are now on a crusade here in the U.S. to start collecting sales taxes on all sales to States that have entered into the Online Sales Tax movement that is ongoing here.  Kind of works out great when you think about the fact that as a seller you will no longer have to register yourself and pay the fees for a tax permit in those States because Etsy is doing it for you.

Best thing here is to let Wayne do his business as he sees fit and for everyone else to do the same with theirs based on the region in which they are located and the laws that apply and to just be supportive of each other.

[mikesc]

Richard..Do you sell via Etsy ? It isn't clear from your post..

[Wayne0820]

Richard and all other friends, thank all of you for your understanding. It is frustrating to be called 'lie' for just providing several price options....

Now I've removed other options and only left the beginner set, no misleading any more... : D  

Just enjoy leathercraft projects!

[mikesc]

Now make your own site, and you'll get to keep the percentage that Etsy currently take from each of your sales..
My best wishes to you Wayne , from what I've seen of your products they appear to be well worth the money , and with far more options than those of Regad.
:)