Thread tension and twisting

[mikesc]

I noticed, that more youtube videos and manuals on how to thread an industrial sewing machine actually make the thread go clockwise around something in the start.

Maybe that depends on if the person threading is right handed or left handed..some of us can use either hand, or both, some due to accident / injury / illness are more restricted. I saw a video a while ago on the BBC about a girl who was born with no arms, who operates her sewing machine ( including threading etc ) with her feet.

Edited May 12, 2019 by mikesc

[Gymnast]

8 minutes ago, mikesc said:

Maybe that depends on if the person threading is right handed or left handed..some of us can use either hand, or both, some due to accident / injury / illness are more restricted? I saw a video awhile ago on the BBC about a girl who was born with no arms and who operates her sewing machine ( including threading etc ) wit her feet.

Yes, perhaps. The Techsew video is an official Techsew instruction. I noticed this Juki 1508 manual with the clockwise turn on the first steelplate.

http://www.juki.co.jp/industrial_j/download_j/manual_j/lu1500n/menu/lu1508/pdf/instruction_7k_1508.pdf#page=1 

I know that deviating from manufacturers threading instruction can have some issues. However it may be a way forward when your thread is kinking.

[Gymnast]

I just got a little update on this subject. I noticed a video from Rusty, Springfield Leather Company, with a thread leaving the spool anticlockwise when you look down on it. Most spools I have seen is the other way around. If you have read the information in this "thread", you will notice, that a thread comming off this way around should be easier to handle. The video is this:

 

Edited May 19, 2019 by Gymnast

[kgg]

 

1 hour ago, Gymnast said:

I just got a little update on this subject. I noticed a video from Rusty, Springfield Leather Company, with a thread leaving the spool anticlockwise when you look down on it. Most spools I have seen is the other way around. If you have read the information in this "thread", you will notice, that a thread comming off this way around should be easier to handle.

The thread in the video is indeed coming off counter clockwise. Your comment on noting the un-spooling direction of the thread sparked me to do a quick checked of my spools of threads, which I really didn't pay much attention to in the past. What I found was:

1. My no name probably cheap Chinese 8 oz black and white nylon comes off clockwise.

2. All my Coats thread various colours (nylon and polyester) comes off their 1 lb spools clockwise.

3. My American & Efiro black nylon thread comes off counter clockwise.

From this it is obvious that different manufacturers are spooling their thread differently, may have something to do with thread size, thread type, spool size or some technical spec. Maybe one of the dealers could do a quick check and see if their thread in different thread sizes comes off the spool differently.

For me the direction of how it comes off the spool doesn't seem pose a problem but more related to the size of the spool, 8 oz vs 1 lb with my problem child being the 8 oz spool. 

kgg

 

 

[Gymnast]

1 hour ago, kgg said:

For me the direction of how it comes off the spool doesn't seem pose a problem but more related to the size of the spool, 8 oz vs 1 lb with my problem child being the 8 oz spool. 

Right, with your redesign of the thread stand by rolling off the thread, it should make no change, because I think the bonded thread will be in a "relaxed" state when stored on the spool. So some twisting will be introduced by the thread comming off the end of the spool, which is the normal case for leatherworkers. For my little machine, I am sure, that I had to make the threading different in the two cases according to this spooling direction.

I watched two other videos on threading of Cowboy machines from SLC, and they show spools with thread comming off clockwise.

[kgg]

16 minutes ago, Gymnast said:

For my little machine, I am sure, that I had to make the threading different in the two cases according to this spooling direction.

I guess we all need to be more conscious of thread / stitching problems when they occur and eventually they will. We need to not only suspect the normal culprits but the direction of how the thread twists as it is spooled off. This can affect tension not only for the top thread but the bobbin thread particularly nearing the end of what is left on the bobbin and when we are pushing any machine to it's normal sewing limits or beyond.

 

30 minutes ago, Gymnast said:

I watched two other videos on threading of Cowboy machines from SLC, and they show spools with thread comming off clockwise.

It would be nice to know who the manufacture(s) of the thread, the thread sizes and type were.

kgg

[Gymnast]

9 minutes ago, kgg said:

It would be nice to know who the manufacture(s) of the thread, the thread sizes and type were.

Yes. I have asked this question to SLC in one of their youtube videos, they allow to comment on. It seems that they do respond normally there. Furthermore I placed a link to here. So hopefully they will answer. But from you we know, that American & Efiro  (or should it be Efird?) seems to produce thread with the counter clockwise unspooling http://www.amefird.com/ 

 

[kgg]

 

7 hours ago, Gymnast said:

But from you we know, that American & Efiro  (or should it be Efird?) seems to produce thread with the counter clockwise unspooling http://www.amefird.com/ 

Ah, it's getting bad when I cann't read my own writing, must be the long Victoria Day weekend. Yes, it should have been American & Efird. When I checked the spool the funny thing is the label indicates it was made in Canada and dyed in the USA. So from that the dying process occurs after the thread is manufactured. The thread was a 1lb spool of Anefil Nylon T135 (V138,Tkt20) black bonded nylon.

kgg

[Gymnast]

On ‎5‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 9:14 AM, chrisash said:

With small cops you can change the direction the thread comes off the cop by turning it upside down, as there is no obvious bottom like larger cones

I tried a test with the same thread spool upside down:

It did Work. In my case the first thread guide is only about double hight, and it may be somewhat low. I repeated the three ways of threading like I presented above in second video. I was not able to get kinks with any of them.

One way of interpreting the result is this: As presented in first video, then any tensioner or simple thread guide will twist in one direction only. The only way to twist otherwise is to make the thread run anticlockwise around something while going forward. So in most cases you will get only one way of twisting from the machine. When the unspooling at the same time makes twisting, so the thread near the spool becomes even more twisted, then kinks is created. With the spool upside down, so the thread comes off anticlockwise, then the twisting in most cases will be less near the spool.

[dikman]

Interesting idea, the only potential problem I can see is that what is now the bottom of the spool will have to be a very tight fit against the "base" as loose coils will have a tendency to gather there and may catch.

[Gymnast]

10 hours ago, dikman said:

Interesting idea, the only potential problem I can see is that what is now the bottom of the spool will have to be a very tight fit against the "base" as loose coils will have a tendency to gather there and may catch.

I agree with you. I tried to cope somewhat with this problem (look at picture) and I did not see it in my trials. If some of the loose coils of thread drops to much Down and around the cone of thread, you can get peaks in thread tension or perhaps catch the thread. Please notice, that I placed a tape around the edge of the base of the spool. The thread passes this edge, and it needs to be smooth. Otherwise the thread easily catch a scratch there.

Perhaps someone else have a better idea to make upside Down of such a spool.

Edited June 13, 2019 by Gymnast

[RockyAussie]

I would think that if a piece of thin foam with a slice half way through could be placed just before the first stand eye the thread could then have any backward movement stopped thereby not allowing the thread to ever drop to the underside of the cone. For some cones it would be easy to print out a reverse cone that had a springy centre to fit within the the thread cone hole but some only have small holes and some large. The large holes would be easy to fit up but the smaller ones would be a little more complicated. I do think stopping the thread from falling back would be the main issue and that may need  something shaped like this >.

 

[kgg]

14 hours ago, dikman said:

Interesting idea, the only potential problem I can see is that what is now the bottom of the spool will have to be a very tight fit against the "base" as loose coils will have a tendency to gather there and may catch.

 

3 hours ago, Gymnast said:

I agree with you. I tried to cope somewhat with this problem (look at picture) and I did not see it in my trials.

I commend your effort and the solution you are working towards. Your spool configuration reminds me of the old fashion industrial size wooden spools or a scaled up version of the domestic spools. What I am getting is that, Gymnast didn't see in his trails the uncoiling problems which may have to do with the quality / type of the thread (brand name vs unknown manufacturer) and dikman pointed out the problem some, me included, have had with cheap Chinese nylon 8 oz (226 g ) spools of thread particularly black. For me I tried placing the problem 8 oz spools on various angles from upside down, like Gymnast has, to the normal standing straight up position and found the best angle to have the spool placed horizontally. My solution may not solve the tension problems associated with twisting of the thread and it's affect with domestic style machines, which can be a bit more temperamental to thread issues, but should help.  

On 5/19/2019 at 2:57 PM, Gymnast said:

Yes. I have asked this question to SLC in one of their youtube videos, they allow to comment on.

Did you get a response to the thread manufacturer? Also on this side of the pond American & Efird is no longer supplying 8 oz spools, maybe it is their problem child as well or just a demand problem.

kgg

[Gymnast]

5 hours ago, kgg said:

I commend your effort and the solution you are working towards.

Well, I actually have solved my problem. I was just interested in finding out, if it should be possible to place the spool upside Down. Then I reported what I saw. It is far too early to say anything about how it will Work in all kind of situations and different threads. But it may be a way to go for some of you.

I think kggs solution with horizontal holders is an excellent idea. In this way the unwinding from spool makes no twisting at all. But it may also have a few issues.

Unfortunately neither SLC nor American & Efird replied to the e-mails I send to them.

[kgg]

13 minutes ago, Gymnast said:

Well, I actually have solved my problem.

That's what it is all about -- problem, try, try, try, ah solution, refine solution. I don't think there is a one size fits all answer but maybe for a future situation / problem someone can build upon the suggestions to resolve their issue. 

kgg

[dikman]

Rocky's idea of a thread tensioner could work, something with just enough tension applied to keep any slack from occurring as the coils come off the spool.

[Gymnast]

I have noticed, that many of the heavier sewing machines have got a wheel type tensioner as main tensioner and one or more pretensioners of disc type. I suppose the wheel type tensioner have got an advantage by not creating much twisting of the thread as the disc type do. The higher thread tension a heavy machine needs should cause more twisting problems, if a dics type tensioner was used as main tensioner.

Do you know of heavy sewing machines, that uses disc tensioners as main tensioner?

What is the correct name for this wheel tensioner type? I "borrowed" this picture from @constabulary of a Singer 45k tensioner. I hope it is OK for me to use it.

I plan to make a revision of the video in the start with the extra information I got here from you. If you have got a picture of a more modern Wheel tensioner, I would love to see it and use it.

[jimi]

Hello Gymnast, Here is a link for a Singer industrial machine that was i think the last of the industrial type leather machines Singer made. It is a modern version of the Singer 45k class machines and has a list of all the similar types of machine in its class. The Adler 4 and 5, 104, 105, 205 were also similar to the 45k, the later being the transition between the 45k and 45b. Seiko and a few others from japan also made similar machines but i cannot remember their names

http://www.industrialsewmachine.com/webdoc1/singer/45b.htm

 The tensioner in the picture is normally referred to as the lower tension assembly, in the parts book it just says "tension" complete and the parts numbers it consists of. If this is any help to you, you go around this wheel 1  1/2 times. you can get a lot of info here on these machines, here is the manual if you need to look at it. 

 

Edited January 5, 2020 by jimi

[Wizcrafts]

It is my theory that the use of roller tensioners was directly related to the common use of linen thread in heavy leather stitchers, in the days before there was any dry bonded synthetic thread. Waxed or dry thread wrapped around the roller got all the tension it needled from friction of the thread wrapping around itself. The more wraps, the more tension was applied. Linen thread isn't as slippery as modern bonded nylon or polyester. Waxed linen is even stickier.

You can see this in action if you have one of the "Speedy Stitchers" that Tandy used to sell (and maybe still sells?). These devices have a bobbin of pre-waxed linen thread in the top of the handle. The waxed linen thread gets its tension by wrapping the thread around a small post on the way to the needle.

[Gymnast]

33 minutes ago, Wizcrafts said:

You can see this in action if you have one of the "Speedy Stitchers" that Tandy used to sell (and maybe still sells?). These devices have a bobbin of pre-waxed linen thread in the top of the handle. The waxed linen thread gets its tension by wrapping the thread around a small post on the way to the needle.

Thanks Wiz. Yes I know of the Speedy Stitcher, and I have got its cousin, the "Sewing Awl", and I have used with waxed thread for several small repair jobs and from before I got sewing machines.

33 minutes ago, Wizcrafts said:

Waxed or dry thread wrapped around the roller got all the tension it needled from friction of the thread wrapping around itself. The more wraps, the more tension was applied.

Interesting. So what you write here is that the tension back then was not controlled by the brake function on the roller, but by the number of turns. And then the roller was free to turn with no friction there - Am I right?

But I guess, that these kind of waxed threads are not used that much anymore with the sewing machines. But these Wheel tensioners are still being prefered on the heavier machines. Thats why I got the theory, that it might very well have the reason due to twisting problems.

5 hours ago, jimi said:

Hello Gymnast, Here is a link for a Singer industrial machin

Thanks Jimi for the links to other information on the 45k and 45b. Yes, this way the thread go from a top dics pre tensioner to a lower main Wheel tensioner on the face plate seems to have been repeated on many machines.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Gymnast

[Wizcrafts]

23 hours ago, Gymnast said:

Interesting. So what you write here is that the tension back then was not controlled by the brake function on the roller, but by the number of turns. And then the roller was free to turn with no friction there - Am I right?

Not entirely. The brake function does affect the tension on the thread wrapped around the roller. If the roller is totally free to rotate, the only friction is the windings of the thread. If the roller is tensioned by the beehive spring it adds friction to the thread in addition to the windings themselves. I have a couple machines with this bottom roller and I use it to fine tune the top thread tension (even though I use dry bonded synthetic thread). The roller braking spring would have an even greater effect with waxed thread that is stickier.

[Gymnast]

When I look at the shape of the roller perimeter on the 45k on the Photo, then it is like a V.

I have not seen good photos of newer roller tensioners. Are they still like a V og could they be like a U as seen to the left in the picture below?

The V-shape should provide higher friction between the roller and the thread than the U-shape.

[Gymnast]

On ‎1‎/‎6‎/‎2020 at 5:54 PM, Wizcrafts said:

I have a couple machines with this bottom roller and I use it to fine tune the top thread tension

When I read this statement, I get the impresion, that you get a major part of the thread tension from the tensioner with discs on the top, and a minor part of the tension from the main roller tensioner. However when I read the manual from Solar Leather on the CB3200 page 8:

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/544bce89e4b0eb63aaac64f3/t/57d4072346c3c43b079dadfd/1473513310952/CB3200+User+Guide.pdf 

Then you are instructed to adjust the main roller tensioner for "greater amount of thread tension" and the tensioner with discs adjust "tension in small amounts". I have got the same statements from an other manual from Artisansew. So here the disc tensioner is used for "fine tune".

However I have not found instructions in manuals, that ensures, that most of the tension is provided by the roller tensioner. I know from the experiments I did (first video), that a disc tensioner create more twisting if you increase its tension. So I suppose you would prefer to have most tension from the roller tensioner avoid too much twisting.

If you increase the tension on the roller tensioner too much, the roller rotation can be blocked, and the thread slides on the roller surface. I guess this would create unstable thread tension and should be undesireable.

I think a roller tensioner use the same principles of function as the winches used on a sailboat. One rope part from the winch can have very high tension, and the other rope part have very little tension. This is a couple of video that shows how such winches are used:

https://youtu.be/HW5lB8ive-4 (go to 2:23 in video)
https://youtu.be/d1pJ_45U-xo (an electric winch on car)

 

[Bert51]

This is the same tension system that I have on my Adler 105 and I just looked through the Cowboy manual that you posted the link to and if you look on Fig. 9-3 you will see the lower tensioner shown as "Main Tension".

It is the main Tension on all these types of machine,  as it goes around the Pulley 1 1/2 turns, the top tension I think only supplies the friction to get the thread to grip the pulley.

Bert.

[Gymnast]

Thanks for you reply, Bert. Yes, I get the same impression on the intentions of the design. How do the roller on the Adler 105 look like? Do it have a V-shaped perimeter for the thread as the roller from the Singer 45k ?