What's up with this thread I was given?

[williaty]

A few weeks ago I bought a used Consew 227R-2 and it came with some cones of 138 thread. When I bought it, the machine had a bobbin in it that was loaded with the black, so that's what I threaded in and, after a little fiddling, it sewed well. A few nights ago, I wanted to try the red thread that was in the box, so I changed over to it and it wouldn't sew worth a damn. Immediately, it was pulling the bobbin thread all the way to the top and laying the top thread down as a straight line. When I went to pull the test piece away from the machine, I could hardly move it because the tension on the top thread was so damned high even with the presser foot up (to release the upper tensioner). Playing with it, the tension was coming *before* the tension assembly. The problem seemed to be from running it through the two... unloopers? before the tensioner. The peg on top of the machine and the little series of holes on the front of it that you run the thread through to take the memory of being on the spool out of the thread. I re-threaded it and just passed it through each of these once rather than looping through them like you're supposed to and it would at least sew but it wasn't pretty.

I played with the red and black threads in my hands and they were a hell of a lot different. The black thread felt soft and supple like I'd expect bonded nylon to be. The red thread was stiff, sharp, and almost crunchy like monofiliment fishing like from the 80s. Both spools claim to be bonded nylon. Both spools claim to be 138 thread (though the red feels thinner). The black thread says it came from Cowboy and the red thread says it came from Weaver.

Am I right that the weird hard feeling and the fact that it doesn't pass through the thread guides well is probably why the red thread didn't sew for shit? Is the way I described the red thread normal for Weaver thread or was this a bad batch or something? Pretty much any wisdom you guys can impart is a hell of a lot better than what I know now.

[kgg]

Oh the fun of thread. You didn't mention if the thread you were using was on 1 lb spools or 8 oz spools and if they come of the spool in the same direction.

I find black bonded nylon to have a tendency of feeling a little thicker and usually stiffer due to the dying / drying process. Thread can and does vary slightly from manufacturer to manufacturer and their individual specifications for the thread. Cowboy maybe getting their thread from manufacturer A and Weaver getting theirs from manufacturer B both tuned slightly different. It could be as simple as a difficult spool of red thread that may be older. A lot of good quality thread manufacturers will list the date of manufacture. I find a lot of the cheap 8oz stuff from China mostly lists just the size, some in Tkt and some in V.

Depending on the manufacturer I find that if I go from white to black I may have to adjust my tensions in both top thread as well as the bobbin. If I go from 1 lb to 8 oz I have to mount the spool horizontally or it is just going to create problems. For a lot of reasons I predominately use 1 lb spools of bonded polyester.

kgg

 

[Matt S]

Normally it's the black thread that's stiff and awkward!

138/TKT20 thread is about £10 per big spool. Sounds like something's gone very wrong with that red. Unknown brand/condition/age/provenance thread that doesn't play ball isn't worth the aggro, whether you're leathering for fun or profit. Put it in the circular file, replace it if you want, and get sewing. 

[williaty]

The thread is all on the  1lb spools/cones.

[brmax]

Just curious, what color is the plastic spool. Particularly for the red  

 

Good day

Floyd

[nylonRigging]

Ya, Black is usually the most stiff I find for color . Don't know  if maybe the dye is heat-set, or it is just the mineral/Chem. used in that specific color ?
I know commercial dyeing is 'Chemical science' and is really in depth knowledge of a trade with sourcing Mineral and Veg. properties of color . I am sure that all the different colors dye can show in the end process, a different finish to a weave or thread .
-
( williaty ) :
..." I played with the red and black threads in my hands and they were a hell of a lot different. The black thread felt soft and supple like I'd expect bonded nylon to be ".

It, your (black thread)  might have been a manufactured 'soft finish ' thread . I have some that is soft finish and they do tension different from the other bonded nylons . I got some Silver-grey soft finish 69, that is the most different to tension from the rest . I buy one color of #69 Lb. nylon cones that I love and  is a med. Tan/beaver, I have bought it from 2 different sources and it is rough as a cob compared to other colors .
.

[nylonRigging]

I think it all depends most on where your sourcing materials you sew with . Thread is biggest most important item, that most people overlook . It all your machine eats and it holds all your work together . And Crappy Thread can make the most perfect job look bad .

Where does the Thread you buy, Come From ?????
I would like to also throw out there, that maybe poor quality threads are Maybe ? Imports that your supplier is buying and selling . ( Poor Quality Control ) All threads are not equal, and I think a lot of Threads these days is just crappy manufacturing with poor quality control of Cheep Import manufacturing .
I have experienced several 'Import' items over the years that are complete Crap when put up against US manufactured product . especially import Binding tapes, webbing, fabrics that are hideously out of spec. and poor weave . As well as most of the Cordura Copy import fabrics I find the Urethane PU spray backing is total crap and the Asian imports scrimp on the Chem. process there also . The Urethane finish on the backing of US manufactured rolls is far superior to the cheap imports .
.

[mikesc]

Asian companies usually "scrimp" on quality if the importer insists on buying at very low prices ..( as would a US manufacturer if the US distributor insisted on paying very low prices to them, or if the US manufacturer was making for export and the importer from outside the US ( maybe even in Asia ) insisted on paying very low prices to the US manufacturer ) ) If the importers are prepared to pay for high quality, they get high quality..If you, or the importer wants "cheap", ( and if the importer then sells it on a a high mark up ) what you'll get will be low quality, that you might well be paying high for..If you are paying cheap from your importer, what "quality" would you expect.

If Asian manufacturing was crap, why would the sewing machines that you use, the computers and phones that you are posting from, not be crap..They are made in Asia..Not made in the USA..Unless you are sewing with old machines or very expensive machines..

The fault of compromising on quality in order to reach a price that an importer is insisting on lies not with the manufacturer, but with the importer, and often also with their end customer, who wants high quality, but expects cheap prices..

To the OP..use the black for sewing..use the red for fishing :)

Edited May 22, 2019 by mikesc

[nylonRigging]

Precisely.. it is All Quality Control of material . It has to do with free market of course with price and profit . . Most of fabric and threads are manufactured overseas because they have FAR LESS EPA burden, regulatory control, Taxes and Labor cost than USA forcibly mandates .
But it boils down to what the manufacture is willing to order and pass for acceptable quality of thread he is buying from the factory and going to sell to it's distributors, that gets sold retail sales to your or my machines .

And I not saying ALL imports are crap that are coming in here and fall on my cutting table or Thread running threw the machines . But Manufacturing overseas at a better cost on the bottom-end . Should not release the burden from the manufacturer that is subcontracting the runs of Threads or other fabric materials from keeping good QC that falls on the end to it's customers .
When I find a distributor that I see has good smooth running Thread coming to my door I am a loyal customer ...LOL  . past few years I have really been struggling to source out better quality of materials I use in the shop and Facts don't lie that it is a real crapshoot sometimes buying Import runs . and 'especially Thread' because I not ordering a few rolls of a color . I ordering box's of one color .
.

Edited May 22, 2019 by nylonRigging

[mikesc]

But it boils down to what the manufacture is willing to order and pass for acceptable quality of thread he is buying from the factory

By definition..a manufacturer "makes" ( they are "the factory" ) ..an importer orders from a manufacturer / factory..some of them then pretend to be manufacturers by "white labeling" what they are having made for them by someone else..

Want high quality sewing machine thread..buy Serafil.
https://www.amann.com/company/about-amann/
It will probably be imported from Germany.
In the USA, you can ask about it here ..their US offices..
http://www.amannusa.com/serafil.html
Amann make other thread types too .. "boxes" ( or 40 foot container loads, even of all the same colour ) are not a problem for them.. :)

Edited May 22, 2019 by mikesc

[nylonRigging]

excuse me for my misuse of the the word 'manufacture' , inplace of word importer . Also pardon me, I have nothing to bitch about sewing with different Threads bought from different vendors because I should have ordered Thread direct from Serafil or Amann in the first place .
.

[chrisash]

Made in the USA, France, England, China or any other country is not a sign of quality, manufacturers in all countries make their products for there market be it low, medium or high cost. You cannot quantify quality with a generalization of the country it was made in

 

[Constabulary]

But you can buy thread from well known manufacturers - it may cost more but you for sure have less issues. It´s a good advice when you buy thread of a manufacturer who has a proper website and give you detailed technical information about their thread(s). Of course every dealer claims their thread is top quality but the key is that you know the "real" manufacturer - not the dealer or importer who probably but their own brand sticker on the thread cones.

Just my 2 cents

[DonInReno]

I’d say chances are high that there are grooves worn in the thread path essentially the size of the thinner of the two threads and the second thread may be stiffer but it sounds more like it’s thicker and dragging in the grooves.

While it might seem like the series of holes is there to “remove memory” from the thread, that’s not the purpose of the holes and commercial thread doesn’t need to be straightened.  There are multiple holes to allow tension to be increased or decreased depending on how many holes are used.

Commercial machines require tension adjustments anytime something changes - it’s an essential operator skill and should be embraced as much as much as any other basic sewing operation.  

[kgg]

On 5/22/2019 at 7:41 PM, Matt S said:

138/TKT20 thread is about £10 per big spool.

What thread are you using for £10 for 1lb (500g) spool which should have 3000 yds on the spool. I spoke to American & Efird last week and a 1lb (500g) spool, which should have 4200 yds on the spool, of Anefil Bonded Polyester or Nylon in V92 (T90,Tkt30) is going to cost $42 CA ($31.25 US / £24.56). They also said they are not supplying 8 oz(250g) thread anymore for general information.

On 5/23/2019 at 9:45 AM, Constabulary said:

But you can buy thread from well known manufacturers - it may cost more but you for sure have less issues. It´s a good advice when you buy thread of a manufacturer who has a proper website and give you detailed technical information about their thread(s).

Totally agree as I do like to know what I am buying rather then I will take some thread in colour AA in spool size XX and thread size YY.

On 5/23/2019 at 9:45 AM, Constabulary said:

Of course every dealer claims their thread is top quality but the key is that you know the "real" manufacturer - not the dealer or importer who probably but their own brand sticker on the thread cones. 

Some retailers / importers don't even bother to add their own label, the spool just has whatever the "real" manufacturer has labelled it as.

6 hours ago, DonInReno said:

While it might seem like the series of holes is there to “remove memory” from the thread, that’s not the purpose of the holes

Totally agree.

6 hours ago, DonInReno said:

and commercial thread doesn’t need to be straightened.

I agree when on 1 lb spools but the smaller 8 oz spools other things can and does happen particularly with "less then" quality (probably cheap Chinese) thread.

kgg

[Matt S]

12 hours ago, kgg said:

What thread are you using for £10 for 1lb (500g) spool which should have 3000 yds on the spool. I spoke to American & Efird last week and a 1lb (500g) spool, which should have 4200 yds on the spool, of Anefil Bonded Polyester or Nylon in V92 (T90,Tkt30) is going to cost $42 CA ($31.25 US / £24.56). They also said they are not supplying 8 oz(250g) thread anymore for general information.

Coats Nylbond. TKT20 1500M, TKT40 3000m. Both around £10/cone (+VAT) in small quantities.

[kgg]

4 hours ago, Matt S said:

Coats Nylbond. TKT20 1500M, TKT40 3000m. Both around £10/cone (+VAT) in small quantities.

Hi Matt Coats is a damn good thread I use mostly Coats Dabond Bonded Polyester myself. The V138 (Tkt 20) and the V69 (Tkt 40) are both 8 oz (250g) spools are I think considered a small spool on this side of the pond even though I have seen 4 oz spools. So the price is fairly comparable.  

kgg