Pfaff 335 clone sold as a genuine Pfaff

[mikesc]

I brought on EBay a pen that has a video recorder built into it and is not at all obvious, it cost about £20, it might be worth finding something similar to have on you when you visit and get a record of all that was discussed in case you get no satisfaction and need to go further to court

Clipped onto your handbag or boy friends top pocket you can have clear pictures and sound

ps did you pay be credit card in which case you could do a chargeback under not as described

Can't use that type of thing ( surreptitious recording ) In France..or the UK or anywhere in the EU ( exceptions made for "Journos" ) with out informing the other party in advance that you are recording them..Can get you into a world of pain with the authorities, police, lawyers, judges etc..

re Charge backs on cards, like stopping checks / cheques..here in France you cannot do either of them because of a commercial dispute, ( dispute with a trader or service provider ) only in case of fraud, in which case an official police complaint has to have been already made before the banks and / or card issuers will accept to do it..and it costs you to do it..

Exception to those charge back conditions being if the charge to card or cheque, was done via "distance selling" or "door to door sales"..in which case in the former you have 14 ( used to be 7 ) days to "retract" ( change your mind and cancel the card payment, it will still incur a fee ) ..door to door sales person, or contract signed in your home away from the sellers place of business..you have 7 days in some cases, 14 in others ( depending on what it was for ) again cancelling will incur a fee.

Stops people ordering things, using them, wearing them, sending them back saying "didn't like it".."changed my mind"..you only get a reasonable amount of time to decide..except with paypal, who most businesses should avoid selling through like they would avoid Ebola. Edited August 1, 2019 by mikesc
typos

[Matt S]

35 minutes ago, mikesc said:

Can't use that type of thing ( surreptitious recording ) In France..or the UK or anywhere in the EU ( exceptions made for "Journos" ) with out informing the other party in advance that you are recording them..Can get you into a world of pain with the authorities, police, lawyers, judges etc..

 

 

 

That is not my understanding of the law, certainly within the UK. Except when doing so for criminal purposes there is no bar from recording audio, stills or video, with or without the permission of the other party/parties involved. Making money from said recording is a slightly murkier part of law, but is in any case a civil matter rather than criminal.

[blue62]

14 hours ago, kgg said:

The OP wanted and bought what she thought was a genuine PFAFF. Otherwise she would probably have bought a Clone for probably less money. I hope this comes a good resolution. Makes us all aware of what to look for in general when purchasing a machine, new or used. The Clone casing is a pretty good exterior representation of the original machine which is probably made for several different Clone suppliers under different badges.

kgg

 

My point was if there is no good resolution, that she will still have a machine that does what she needs it to do.

[mikesc]

The best quick example to point you to..is that when you phone the ICO they specifically say they are not recording you, if they were, they have to tell you, and you have the right to refuse that anyone does.. Recording someone in their place of business or home ( for whatever reason , requires their permission ) ..it is not because one can do something , or buy something, that it is legal to do so or to use it..For the details as to what one can and cannot do, legally , in the UK as in the EU in general ( for the next 90 days the UK is still governed by EU laws ( which I'm not going to go finding to link to ) ..ask a lawyer ( "rights to privacy law" in the UK is a speciality ) ..it can indeed be criminal, in some circumstances ,to record, take stills or video of someone, in a private place, a place of business, or even in public ( think "taking photos of other peoples kids on the beach", or recording them, audio or video , or anyone )..which will get you a visit from "the Bill" etc in short order, and possibly a court appearance, with maybe a sentence ) ..without their permission, given in advance*..

In France the way to have an event "witnessed" is to take along someone else..but only a witness statement ( as to what they heard or saw or what was said an Huissier ( bailiff ) ) counts for full legal weight..here it is known as a constat.. a Huissier will cost one about €400.00 per hour ( paid "up front" ) here in Brittany, maybe more in Marseille ( you have to pay for the sun in the PACA ;))..plus any eventual expenses that they may incur ( travelling etc ) ..if it goes, in the case of this sewing machine it is a mixture of a civil and a criminal case ( the criminal part would be brought by any of the various authorities I mentioned above ) ( eventually ) to court, and one wins..one can ask for the other side to reimburse the costs of hiring the Huissier..

*One of the things that TM did not like about the EU was it's laws ( which over ride any pre-existing UK laws ) governing privacy and who could record whom and why and in what circumstances..laws which apply not just to governments, civil servants, police, businesses, but also to private individuals..

Being recorded by the hundreds of thousands of CCT cameras in the UK doesn't count..they thought of that when drafting the laws..although TM would have liked to be able to take them far further than the EU allowed her to.

"Civil legal cases and affairs" can "flip" ( partially or wholly ) into Criminal law ones remarkably easily..Drilled into me by my lawyer, barrister, judge and police mates when I was in the UK..The ones I know here say the same thing..added to which the various Tax authorities here have powers that they don't in the UK..like they can seize your bank accounts and assets without requiring a warrant...They just tell the bank " block it"..and the bank has to do so..by law..then ..they will write and inform you..meanwhile ..all your money ( that was not actually in cash in your pocket ) disappeared.

Edited August 1, 2019 by mikesc

[mikesc]

My point was if there is no good resolution, that she will still have a machine that does what she needs it to do.

If some one could get away with disguising a Pinto to look like Cadillac and selling it to you..it would still get you from A to B , which is what a car does..
But you'd be pissed if you'd paid Caddy prices for a disguised Pinto, and the seller would have committed fraud..and probably some other things under US law.

Edited August 1, 2019 by mikesc

[blue62]

6 minutes ago, mikesc said:

If some one could get away with disguising a Pinto to look like Cadillac and selling it to you..it would still get you from A to B , which is what a car does..
But you'd be pissed if you'd paid Caddy prices for a disguised Pinto, and the seller would have committed fraud..and probably some other things under US law.

Your right, but it would still beat walking,

I do have to applaud French law enforcement for having time to deal with something like this, over here you'd be told something to the effect of you will have to work it out with the merchant, have a nice day, or buyer beware.

Takes some big dollars in fraud to get law enforcement to investigate anything.

 

[Matt S]

2 minutes ago, mikesc said:

The best quick example to point you to..is that when you phone the ICO they specifically say they are not recording you, if they were, they have to tell you, and you have the right to refuse that anyone does.. Recording someone in their place of business or home ( for whatever reason , requires their permission ) ..it is not because one can do something , or buy something, that it is legal to do so or to use it..For the details as to what one can and cannot do, legally , in the UK as in the EU in general ( for the next 90 days the UK is still governed by EU laws ( which I'm not going to go finding to link to ) ..ask a lawyer ( "rights to privacy law" in the UK is a speciality ) ..it can indeed be criminal, in some circumstances ,to record, take stills or video of someone, in a private place, a place of business, or even in public ( think "taking photos of other peoples kids on the beach", or recording them, audio or video , or anyone )..which will get you a visit from "the Bill" etc in short order, and possibly a court appearance, with maybe a sentence ) ..without their permission, given in advance*..

Making it obvious that a person's conduct is being recorded (or implying that it is, even when not) is often believed to improve their conduct. Further, as I said previously, use of a recording for commercial purposes is a different kettle of fish.

Filming someone's kids without an obvious reason why will cause police intervention/investigation because there is a prima face case of filming with criminal intent. Under UK law there is no and never has been any presumption of privacy in a public place (which can and does include business premises and other private property). This is very well established. Similarly, covert/concealed (as opposed to overt) CCTV cameras, private or public, are perfectly legal to operate anywhere, except where privacy is reasonably expected, such as a changing room or toilet.
 

Quote

*One of the things that TM did not like about the EU was it's laws ( which over ride any pre-existing UK laws ) governing privacy and who could record whom and why and in what circumstances..laws which apply not just to governments, civil servants, police, businesses, but also to private individuals..

Being recorded by the hundreds of thousands of CCT cameras in the UK doesn't count..they thought of that when drafting the laws..although TM would have liked to be able to take them far further than the EU allowed her to.

I don't agree with your interpretation of the law at all, especially the automatic supremacy of EU law over Westminster statute, but you are free to do so and I think that we are drifting rather far from the topic of this thread. I live and work under the interpretation of the law that the Metropolitan Police and Crown Prosecution Service use -- as do the many people I know who operate recording devices within the UK for hobby and business purposes.

[blue62]

13 minutes ago, mikesc said:

If some one could get away with disguising a Pinto to look like Cadillac and selling it to you..it would still get you from A to B , which is what a car does..
But you'd be pissed if you'd paid Caddy prices for a disguised Pinto, and the seller would have committed fraud..and probably some other things under US law.

And by the way, the pinto pretending to be a caddy thing, I see that all the time, auto repair is my mainline occupation, we always recommend a prepurchase inspection or just a test drive by someone knowledgeable .

[mikesc]

Ah "The Met " and the CPS..bless 'em..the same ones that tried to do photographers for being "too tall"..their chosen interpretations of the law vary more than the wind and tides do..But , yes..we are forgetting the sewing machine in question, Vanessa asked me around midday( my time ) via Pm it we could talk on the phone, I replied within 15 minutes, soon as I noticed the Pm, said "yes, but I'd be busy until 14.30 to 15.00 my time", I asked for her number so as to ring her when I was free.

Haven't heard a word back from her since..and now, after killing time, for an an hour and a half since 15.00, ( 16.40 here now ) tinkering around with a computer or two. and posting a bit in between, while waiting for her to get back to me ..I've now got to do other stuff again ( including going out ) calls to make and to take, work to do, so won't be available to phone maybe until tomorrow, if then.

She'll have to see how it goes with her dealer given what I've posted..and what she was told on the French forum( http://cuir-creation.forum-box.com/index.php) ..a place that I can recommend if one speaks /reads / writes French ( which was more or less what I told her here, minus the parts about the "fisc" and the URSSAF )..as long as she doesn't try going in with a "secret squirrel pen" in France..she should be OK ;)

Edited August 1, 2019 by mikesc

[Matt S]

36 minutes ago, mikesc said:

Ah "The Met " and the CPS..bless 'em..the same ones that tried to do photographers for being "too tall"..their chosen interpretations of the law vary more than the wind and tides do.

If you're referring to the incident a decade ago when an individual officer from Kent Constab made a foolish arrest under stress, which was reversed before the photographer was taken to a police station, I think you're either tilting at windmills or should stop believing the headlines. Interpretation of the law in England ultimately sits with the courts, and for practical purposes with the local plod and CPS. Not by two barrack-room lawyers on an internet forum ;-)

[chrisash]

Mike the law in the UK at least is different hence the number of video recorders constantly recording all activity from the house to the road outside or the use of video's in car for recording accidents and any thing the camera is pointing to, the shops watching you with no notice telling you and so on

I assume most cars from the UK visiting France also have car cameras operating all the time

[Wizcrafts]

Be careful when offering (pseudo) legal advice if you are not a certified commercial lawyer. Even if one is a credentialed lawyer, the laws would be different in France than elsewhere. Bad legal advice can be counterproductive.

[kgg]

25 minutes ago, Wizcrafts said:

Be careful when offering (pseudo) legal advice if you are not a certified commercial lawyer. Even if one is a credentialed lawyer, the laws would be different in France than elsewhere. Bad legal advice can be counterproductive.

I agree. Laws are different and can be applied differently from one country to another. Like in Canada you can record your own conversations with others without them knowing as long as you give yourself consent to recording it but it is illegal to record conversations between other people where you are not part of the conversation. Fine lines and how a court would apply could be quite different.

Hope this gets resolved fairly and quickly.

kgg

 

 

[vanessaFrance]

9 hours ago, chrisash said:

I brought on EBay a pen that has a video recorder built into it and is not at all obvious, it cost about £20, it might be worth finding something similar to have on you when you visit and get a record of all that was discussed in case you get no satisfaction and need to go further to court

Clipped onto your handbag or boy friends top pocket you can have clear pictures and sound

ps did you pay be credit card in which case you could do a chargeback under not as described

That would have been a great idea, time-permitting... Unfortunately we won't have time to buy one.

[vanessaFrance]

19 hours ago, mikesc said:

Ah "The Met " and the CPS..bless 'em..the same ones that tried to do photographers for being "too tall"..their chosen interpretations of the law vary more than the wind and tides do..But , yes..we are forgetting the sewing machine in question, Vanessa asked me around midday( my time ) via Pm it we could talk on the phone, I replied within 15 minutes, soon as I noticed the Pm, said "yes, but I'd be busy until 14.30 to 15.00 my time", I asked for her number so as to ring her when I was free.

Haven't heard a word back from her since..and now, after killing time, for an an hour and a half since 15.00, ( 16.40 here now ) tinkering around with a computer or two. and posting a bit in between, while waiting for her to get back to me ..I've now got to do other stuff again ( including going out ) calls to make and to take, work to do, so won't be available to phone maybe until tomorrow, if then.

She'll have to see how it goes with her dealer given what I've posted..and what she was told on the French forum( http://cuir-creation.forum-box.com/index.php) ..a place that I can recommend if one speaks /reads / writes French ( which was more or less what I told her here, minus the parts about the "fisc" and the URSSAF )..as long as she doesn't try going in with a "secret squirrel pen" in France..she should be OK

My apologies, Mike, but I have been busy like crazy preparing the meeting and gathering all the evidence I could find... We are off to Marseille. Fingers crossed

[vanessaFrance]

So...

My boyfriend and I went to confront the guy.. He argued for a few minutes, claiming I bought a secondhand machine (so what?), and that he's not responsible if it's a fake. He then tried to question whether it was actually a fake, at which I point I said an expert had seen the machine and confirmed it was a fake (the expert being you guys! ). I showed him the forged plate, mentioned the missing Pfaff engravings, and alluded to the fact we had made screenshots of his online store showing more fake machines. That and the threat of a heavy fine should we go to the police, did the job.

 

He offered a check, which I turned down. We demanded cash, which ended up with my boyfriend escorting the guy to an ATM. We took the cash, gave the machine back, and got away. 

Piece of cake !!! 

A BIG thank you to everyone, specially Mike. You have been very helpful. Expect to read a new thread from me soon, the topic being : so now that I got my money back, what machine do I buy ??? 

[kgg]

Glad you got your money back too put towards another machine. What a cautionary tale for everyone. I bet dollars to donuts it well be on his website soon enough for the next unsuspecting buyer.

kgg

[chrisash]

This was the first time i had hear of the fake machines, and i am sure many others as well did not know, Vanessa I think you have done leather workers a great favour in bringing this to our attention

Many thanks and good hunting for the elusive machine

[brmax]

I am glad for the positive outcome, and proud of your actions.  

It is sad to say but a fact, the amount of products being pushed out of factories for the initial good purpose. Has proven consistent with all this product manipulation.

The difference among some people and locations with regards to product quality and honor is seriously lacking, and has been unless a high degree of outside supervision is stringently consistent.  

 

Floyd

[mikesc]

Just got home and saw this "update"
.. A win for you and LW :) :) and C-C .

Great news..Don't forget to let them know " la bas" ( chez C-C ) sellier42 especially..they'll be pleased too..
Ah..I just saw that you did post on C-C just before 15.00 hours..and you say there you even got the guy to chip in €100.00 "gas money" for your troubles ..

If you want to pm me with the name of the dealer..I'd be interested..I can tell people I know in the PACA who to avoid if they are buying machines.

ps..If you lived nearer , but you are at the other end of the country, there is a local dealer selling a "lot" 21 industrials, all tri-phase, on BC Bretagne ,he wants €2000.00 for the lot, but I don't know if there are any triple entrainement leather machines in there, I haven't had time to contact him ( nor can I tell from the pics ) probably not , even less likely any are "à canon".. usually on "lots" they break out the "triples" and the especially the "canons" and sell them individually for more..
https://www.leboncoin.fr/commerces_marches/1653756691.htm/

I'd have no where to put them while I disposed of them :(

You'll have to keep you eye on the BC..some bargains do show up..I just missed earlier this year a Juki 441 "as new" under €2000.00, ( that was not a typo ) with a load of thread ( owner died , family were disposing of it all, a dealer got it) ..and a brace of Adler patchers , again "as new" recently bought current models, ( again owner died ) family wanted €200.00 for the pair, ( that was not a typo either ) with loads of spares and a box of thread on big cones..

I'd have had no space for any of them, but at those kind of prices, I'd have stored them with my neighbour ;), w sworn him to secrecy, and in a years time told my wife "you don't remember the ones I left chez Hérvé a few years ago" ..I only have 7, they might have slid in there un-noticed if they were in his garage, and not in our living room..

Re what kind of machine to get..

Read the sticky thread up at the top of the page by Wiz
https://leatherworker.net/forum/topic/25239-the-type-of-sewing-machine-you-need-to-sew-leather/
and if you are wondering if anyone has ever discussed a particular machine here..search in your favourite search engine, like this next line
site:leatherworker.net machine
only where I wrote machine..you write the machine..for example Pfaff 335
so you'd search
site:leatherworker.net Pfaff 335
the results would have every thread here that ever mentioned a Paff 335 ( including this thread ) ..every discussion that mentioned them at all.
HTH :)


There are more leather workers where you are Avignon area, than here in Bretagne..more machines should show up there than here.

Edited August 2, 2019 by mikesc

[mikesc]

Chris, there are an awful lot of fakes of everything, not just in leatherwork..But in leatherwork, it is right the way along the chain, from fake thread and needles, through fake parts, fake machines , fake finished items, fake branded items, bags , clothes, boots etc.

The fact that some clones are so accurate ( at least the exteriors are) that means if you don't have the experience, you might be buying a fake..be it a spool of thread, a box of needles, a hook, some internal parts, feet, an entire machine, a motor, a stand..The list of fake "anything" is as long as the list of genuine "anything".. "caveat emptor" is over 2000 years old..there are, and have always been crooks everywhere that there is money to be made..

Edited August 2, 2019 by mikesc

[marronne]

So glad you got this sorted @vanessaFrance.  Thanks for sharing.  Particularly useful for me as like you and @mikesc, I'm in France too and it could be useful for future dealings - you never know.

[vanessaFrance]

One final word : if you're looking at buying a professional sewing machine in Marseille, beware ! Don't hesitate to send me a PM and I'll tell you if your seller is the one who cheated on me.

 

Cheers !