Pfaff 335 clone sold as a genuine Pfaff

[kgg]

3 hours ago, blue62 said:

That's to bad it's misrepresented, but does it do what you need it to do?

The OP wanted and bought what she thought was a genuine PFAFF. Otherwise she would probably have bought a Clone for probably less money. I hope this comes a good resolution. Makes us all aware of what to look for in general when purchasing a machine, new or used. The Clone casing is a pretty good exterior representation of the original machine which is probably made for several different Clone suppliers under different badges.

kgg

 

[vanessaFrance]

11 hours ago, mikesc said:

If you are going Friday, and if you are still up and about this Wednesday evening..Before you go, I might be able to give you a few things to do / say, which may help you get your money back ( only take cash )..Depends on how good your, or your boyfriend's French ( spoken , don't worry for now about written ) is, as to what the advice will be..

IME when I ask that ..most Brits says theirs is good, usually turns out to be far from the case..so be honest.. as in do you watch French TV, do you laugh ( because you understand them completely ) at Jamel's sketches..?

Also which "police" did you go to ..Municipale or Nationale ?..Gendarmerie normally do not cover Marseille* , unless your dealer is "dans la brousse" outside of Marseille**.

*Otherwise known as "den of iniquity 13 in the sun" ..

Love the movies Mr Besson

**Before we moved up here ( my wife is Breton ) we spent 20 years in the PACA..Cannes, Golfe Juan, St Tropez, Port Cogolin, Port Grimaud..Draguignan..I know Marseille well.

Of course if you are French with very good written English, or your boyfriend is French ? It will be much easier to advise you what to say, do.

I'm actually French, but use my boyfriend's English command to interact with you guys ! I went to the gendarmerie nearest to my place, and was pleasantly surprised at their willingness to help and give advice. In Marseille I'll have to go to the police, and it will be a whole different story there... Anyway thanks for offering to help. I will PM you.

[vanessaFrance]

A quick update : I explained my problem on a French-language forum (cuir-creation, for you French speakers out there), and got contacted by a very helpful and knowledegeable gentleman who confirmed my machine is a fake, selling for approximately 30% less under its original brand. I provided him with a link to my seller's online store  on "Le Bon Coin" (kind of a French version of Craig's List), and guess what ? It didn't take him long to spot a picture of a fake Durkopp Adler splitter. DA doesn't even make splitters, according to him.

Which goes to show the guy is probably a "professional" crook, and will make my case a more compelling one : the police will probably treat the case more diligently if they realize he is a "chain-forger"...

[mikesc]

You need to threaten them with the DGCCRF
https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F34284
and maybe mention that you'll talk to the BCR / BCF Marseille region,
( brigade de contrôle fiscal.."fisc" for short ) I have friend who is their head here for le 22..
Most business owners are terrified of getting on the wrong side of the DGCCRF ( the paperwork will drown them ) they will prosecute if he does not refund you, the publicity would be very bad for his business..Also if you bought via "le bon coin" or similar, threaten to report him for fraud and selling contrefaçon..They would kill his account..He would not want that..

BCF or BCR..they ( and an investigation by them are any businesses worst nightmare in France, especially as most businesses ( especially in the South ) will be making around 10 to 20 % of their income as undeclared cash ( Black ) ..When ever I visit Jean-Mi, his phones are ringing constantly with people denouncing businesses for not declaring money to the fisc or to the URSSAF..

and l'URSSAF for good measure.

URSSAF is the other leg of the nightmare for French businesses, being investigated by them ( you'd just have to tell them that you saw cash changing hands while you were at his premises ..same for the BCF/ BCR ..

Mention that you will be contacting all those organisms, if you don't get your money back, cash .. adding.."Ce serait dommage si"... ( you could hum a few bars of the Dalida song of that name to him, ask him if he knows it ..to drive the point home ) .. :)


Bon Chance

Edit..you posted re Cuir-creation while I was typing ( good forum ) ..In the light of what you have found..( take some screen shots ) definitely visit the dealer as per my suggestions.. I'm reading your thread at cuir-creation now.

What does your facture ( receipt say ) say ?..Ok belay that..I read "la bas" that it is a "bon d'achat" which says Pfaff 335.

I agree with most of the people on that cuir creation thread..ex specially with the comments by Sellier42..bear in mind that contacting the BCR /BCF, URSSAF and DGCCRF will cost you nothing..I notice also that it was the Gendarmerie, that is fortunate as the Munis are a waste of space and air, and the Nats are a similar waste of effort talking to, for this kind of thing..Gendarmerie carry more weight, and put some fear ( but not as much as the others that I've mentioned BCF/ BCR and URSSSAF ) into les escrocs ( crooks )..

You have to be quick with
the DDPP and the DDCSPP.. or they'll change the name and the acronyms again to something even longer and harder to remember.. ;)
https://www.economie.gouv.fr/dgccrf/coordonnees-des-DDPP-et-DDCSPP

Edited August 1, 2019 by mikesc
Spelling / typos

[chrisash]

I brought on EBay a pen that has a video recorder built into it and is not at all obvious, it cost about £20, it might be worth finding something similar to have on you when you visit and get a record of all that was discussed in case you get no satisfaction and need to go further to court

Clipped onto your handbag or boy friends top pocket you can have clear pictures and sound

ps did you pay be credit card in which case you could do a chargeback under not as described

Edited August 1, 2019 by chrisash

[mikesc]

I brought on EBay a pen that has a video recorder built into it and is not at all obvious, it cost about £20, it might be worth finding something similar to have on you when you visit and get a record of all that was discussed in case you get no satisfaction and need to go further to court

Clipped onto your handbag or boy friends top pocket you can have clear pictures and sound

ps did you pay be credit card in which case you could do a chargeback under not as described

Can't use that type of thing ( surreptitious recording ) In France..or the UK or anywhere in the EU ( exceptions made for "Journos" ) with out informing the other party in advance that you are recording them..Can get you into a world of pain with the authorities, police, lawyers, judges etc..

re Charge backs on cards, like stopping checks / cheques..here in France you cannot do either of them because of a commercial dispute, ( dispute with a trader or service provider ) only in case of fraud, in which case an official police complaint has to have been already made before the banks and / or card issuers will accept to do it..and it costs you to do it..

Exception to those charge back conditions being if the charge to card or cheque, was done via "distance selling" or "door to door sales"..in which case in the former you have 14 ( used to be 7 ) days to "retract" ( change your mind and cancel the card payment, it will still incur a fee ) ..door to door sales person, or contract signed in your home away from the sellers place of business..you have 7 days in some cases, 14 in others ( depending on what it was for ) again cancelling will incur a fee.

Stops people ordering things, using them, wearing them, sending them back saying "didn't like it".."changed my mind"..you only get a reasonable amount of time to decide..except with paypal, who most businesses should avoid selling through like they would avoid Ebola. Edited August 1, 2019 by mikesc
typos

[Matt S]

35 minutes ago, mikesc said:

Can't use that type of thing ( surreptitious recording ) In France..or the UK or anywhere in the EU ( exceptions made for "Journos" ) with out informing the other party in advance that you are recording them..Can get you into a world of pain with the authorities, police, lawyers, judges etc..

 

 

 

That is not my understanding of the law, certainly within the UK. Except when doing so for criminal purposes there is no bar from recording audio, stills or video, with or without the permission of the other party/parties involved. Making money from said recording is a slightly murkier part of law, but is in any case a civil matter rather than criminal.

[blue62]

14 hours ago, kgg said:

The OP wanted and bought what she thought was a genuine PFAFF. Otherwise she would probably have bought a Clone for probably less money. I hope this comes a good resolution. Makes us all aware of what to look for in general when purchasing a machine, new or used. The Clone casing is a pretty good exterior representation of the original machine which is probably made for several different Clone suppliers under different badges.

kgg

 

My point was if there is no good resolution, that she will still have a machine that does what she needs it to do.

[mikesc]

The best quick example to point you to..is that when you phone the ICO they specifically say they are not recording you, if they were, they have to tell you, and you have the right to refuse that anyone does.. Recording someone in their place of business or home ( for whatever reason , requires their permission ) ..it is not because one can do something , or buy something, that it is legal to do so or to use it..For the details as to what one can and cannot do, legally , in the UK as in the EU in general ( for the next 90 days the UK is still governed by EU laws ( which I'm not going to go finding to link to ) ..ask a lawyer ( "rights to privacy law" in the UK is a speciality ) ..it can indeed be criminal, in some circumstances ,to record, take stills or video of someone, in a private place, a place of business, or even in public ( think "taking photos of other peoples kids on the beach", or recording them, audio or video , or anyone )..which will get you a visit from "the Bill" etc in short order, and possibly a court appearance, with maybe a sentence ) ..without their permission, given in advance*..

In France the way to have an event "witnessed" is to take along someone else..but only a witness statement ( as to what they heard or saw or what was said an Huissier ( bailiff ) ) counts for full legal weight..here it is known as a constat.. a Huissier will cost one about €400.00 per hour ( paid "up front" ) here in Brittany, maybe more in Marseille ( you have to pay for the sun in the PACA ;))..plus any eventual expenses that they may incur ( travelling etc ) ..if it goes, in the case of this sewing machine it is a mixture of a civil and a criminal case ( the criminal part would be brought by any of the various authorities I mentioned above ) ( eventually ) to court, and one wins..one can ask for the other side to reimburse the costs of hiring the Huissier..

*One of the things that TM did not like about the EU was it's laws ( which over ride any pre-existing UK laws ) governing privacy and who could record whom and why and in what circumstances..laws which apply not just to governments, civil servants, police, businesses, but also to private individuals..

Being recorded by the hundreds of thousands of CCT cameras in the UK doesn't count..they thought of that when drafting the laws..although TM would have liked to be able to take them far further than the EU allowed her to.

"Civil legal cases and affairs" can "flip" ( partially or wholly ) into Criminal law ones remarkably easily..Drilled into me by my lawyer, barrister, judge and police mates when I was in the UK..The ones I know here say the same thing..added to which the various Tax authorities here have powers that they don't in the UK..like they can seize your bank accounts and assets without requiring a warrant...They just tell the bank " block it"..and the bank has to do so..by law..then ..they will write and inform you..meanwhile ..all your money ( that was not actually in cash in your pocket ) disappeared.

Edited August 1, 2019 by mikesc

[mikesc]

My point was if there is no good resolution, that she will still have a machine that does what she needs it to do.

If some one could get away with disguising a Pinto to look like Cadillac and selling it to you..it would still get you from A to B , which is what a car does..
But you'd be pissed if you'd paid Caddy prices for a disguised Pinto, and the seller would have committed fraud..and probably some other things under US law.

Edited August 1, 2019 by mikesc