Copying and copyright(ing) 'n' stuff

[fredk]

12 minutes ago, PappyJoe said:

In the olden days of the U.S. Coast Guard and Navy - before political correctness took over - when an enlisted person was promoted to the rank of Chief Petty Officer (E-7 paygrade), they had the option to be initiated into the Chief Petty Officers association. Once they said, "I'm going to be initiated." they were issued a charge book - in my case it was a green record book - that I would have to take around and present to anyone who was a chief petty officer or above who would then fill the pages with any type of "well wishes" and insults they would like. . . .

and there I was think it was for recording personnel who were on 'a charge'. When I was in the RAF Officer Of The Day kept such a book, entering who was 'on a charge' and what for and determining who was 'carpeted' ie went before the Senior Officer, for punishment

another example of different meanings in the two countries

Edited September 2, 2019 by fredk

[PappyJoe]

Just now, fredk said:

and there I was think it was for recording personnel who were on 'a charge'. When I was in the RAF Officer Of The Day kept such a book, entering who was 'on a charge' and what for and determining who was 'carpeted' ie went before the Senior Officer, for punishment

another example of two different meanings in the two countries

Actually, not that different except you used the charge book for actual rules infractions serious enough to get called on the carpet. We also had that in the Coast Guard. For the initiations, it was mainly to create a keepsake of the event and it was all in good fun. I became a Chief Petty Officer in 1985 and I still have my charge book packed away with my last dress uniform in a chest. 

[mikesc]

I thought "charge book" was the same meaning as did Fred..
But..I got a chit ...mate*..."excused being up on a charge" it says..

Of course calling whoever outranked one, "mate"..would be enough to get one "up on a charge" all by itself. 'Less one was in a "wet branch".. and it was their rank.

Edited September 2, 2019 by mikesc

[particle]

I’m reluctant to revive this thread, but I haven’t been here in a while and I feel I need to set a few things straight. I'm sure my words will get twisted and there will continue to be accusations and insults thrown my way like "S O F T", "MUNKY", "jackal", etc., but certain people seem to enjoy that sort of stuff, so whatever.

When I first started making holsters over a decade ago, it was to replace my wife's income since we were expecting our third child. Tutorials related to concealed carry holsters were almost non-existent in 2009 (at least as far as I was aware). There was a great tutorial for a pancake style holster on a guy's website, but I've lost track of it over the years - I'd love to remember where it was so I could reach out to him and thank him for helping to get me started (I used to direct people to his site all the time because it was such a great resource). At the time, YouTube was still mostly silly cat videos. To help give back to the leatherworker.net community (and the world as a whole), and to help market my holster business and show my customers how much work was involved in making a holster, I posted my first 3-part YouTube video in February of 2010 showing how I made an Avenger style holster for my Kahr P9. To help make ends meet, I eventually started selling patterns. And yes, I did make tutorial videos that I had available via subscription on my website. I now just post new videos directly to YouTube, but the O.P. loves to make it sound like I'm forcing people to buy/rent/watch the stuff I make. I'm just trying to help others while also paying the bills!

Regarding the tooling pattern shown in the Stohlman book in multiple threads - yes, I did use that design for inspiration, and yes, I did include my hand-drawn & adapted version in some of my pancake patterns. No, I never directly photocopied and distorted it with my graphics software. It was not a direct copy. Being that I hand-drew the design to fit on my reinforcement piece, I felt it had been modified enough to use on my patterns. The individual elements in the design are not unique to Stohlman, but I should not have leaned so heavily on his composition. Once it was suggested here that there might be some legal issues with such a strong resemblance to the original composition, I immediately went through all of my patterns and removed the tooling pattern from my files.

Regarding my most recent YouTube video that my (not so) secret stalker referred to (showing how I made a flat-back holster for a Taurus Judge, I'd never seen the tutorial shared by Jim back in September of 2009. Or at least if I had seen it, I completely forgot about it. I've only made a hand-full of western style holsters in my decade of experience, so it wasn't something that would have interested me 10 years ago. The formula I’d used over the years usually worked very well for me (1/2 the slide thickness + one thickness of leather = stitch offset). Jason Ingle used a leather strip a while back in a class he did with Learn Leather. I've been using ‘his’ technique lately. I’m sure he's the not original creator of that technique (and I’m sure he would be the first to tell you he didn’t create the technique), but he's the only person I’ve seen use that technique. Prior to seeing Sam Andrews video on making a flat back holster, I'd never made one before and never really knew how to. His video was a great help, and I credited Sam in the video since he's the actual person I learned that particular method from.

Regarding having 'legal' text at the bottom of my pattern product listings, that was simply to discourage people from distributing my holster patterns. Yes, since I had an adaptation of Stohlman’s tooling pattern in some of my files, that was a little ironic, but it was an innocent oversight, and one that I didn’t consciously see a problem at the time (again, since it wasn’t a direct copy) and I immediately removed them from the files once I realized there was a potential problem with it. So thank you for bringing that to my attention, no matter what your motives were.

When I created my Avenger style pattern back in 2009 or 2010, I tried very hard to differentiate my design from the original Askins Avenger. His reinforcement band was a simple “L” shaped piece of leather that naturally worked great for making the belt slot tunnel. I made my reinforcement piece very large with an integral belt slot tunnel so I’d have room for tooling, but it made it terribly difficult to form the belt tunnel. To my knowledge, no one else was making their Avenger style reinforcements that way at the time, but now loads of people make it that way, even though it’s a less-than-ideal design. And my pancake reinforcements – I don’t remember seeing anyone making them extend down towards the muzzle the way I was doing it, but now it’s common place. Oddly enough, those that would call me out don’t see a problem with using things that were unique to my own designs at the time, though I’m sure I’ll now be accused of stealing those designs back in 2010.

At the end of the day, I'm just trying to be the best dad and husband that I can be. I love sharing whatever tips and tricks that I can with anyone that asks. Making tutorial videos satisfies my need to create things with my hands and help & teach others, while also getting to do fun things with video editing software.

I’m baffled that certain individuals have latched onto me and continue to throw insults and accusations my way. If I’ve rubbed people the wrong way, I’m truly sorry. If others wonder why I don’t post here anymore – well, it’s because of threads like this.

[Rhale]

Particle,  I’ll bet you are the only one to ever use a Stohlman pattern or design! LOL. I figure if someone doesn’t want there design copied, or their pattern used or similar they better copyright it.  They put the info out there for the world to see, tell them exactly how they made it in detail including a video then bitch like hell if someone copies it.  What do they expect to happen. Some people just like to complain.

[sideforce]

In this world of wide-open media and communication, if one desires to keep a technique or design secret, then they should not put it out there with an expectation it won't be used.  YouTube is an excellent resource for information, techniques, and skills.  I've learned and benefited from the efforts others have made to put it out there.  Particle, I thank you for your efforts to share the craft, for without sharing it will die out.  As Rhale stated, "Some people just like to complain."  Let them, most of it is ego-driven, desiring acclaim for creating something, that for the most part has already been done before.  Are there truly any original ideas remaining?

[JLSleather]

14 hours ago, Rhale said:

They put the info out there for the world to see, ...What do they expect to happen.

Tha's what I said. IF what you do is something that ANYBODY can do, then don't be surprised when ANYBODY does.

12 hours ago, sideforce said:

if one desires to keep a technique or design secret, then they should not put it out there with an expectation it won't be used

Uh.. tha's what I said. IF what you do is something that ANYBODY can do, then don't be surprised when ANYBODY does.

 

14 hours ago, Rhale said:

I figure if someone doesn’t want there design copied, or their pattern used or similar they better copyright it.  

What about when they DID copyright it, and then it's reused and redistributed anyway?  It's legally the responsibility of the copyright holder to enforce it. What do you suggest the rest of us should do when we see that?  [That's rhetorical - thought provoking, but not requiring an actual response]

Copyright 'protection' applies to the [re]distribution of the printed work.  MOST of us have used Stohlman patterns.  I STILL get asked to make some from 1950-something, which is before I was born.  What i don't do, is RESELL THE PATTERN, which IS copyrighted (its printed right on the book, and has been renewed since then).

Hey, copy my stuff... I won't care.  Just don't copy my stuff, then offer to sell me a "how to" or a video explaining my stuff to me

_____________________________

Footnote: EricA seems to think I was referring to him.  Funny that.  I'm guessing we're not going to see much the same way, so discussion probably not profitable 'adventure'.

 

[Rhale]

Particle,  I’ll bet you are the only one to ever use a Stohlman pattern or design! LOL. I figure if someone doesn’t want there design copied, or their pattern used or similar they better copyright it.  They put the info out there for the world to see, tell them exactly how they made it in detail including a video then bitch like hell if someone copies it.  What do they expect to happen. Some people just like to complain.

[Rhale]

If you are the copyright holder, get an attorney take it to court. Enforce it, if you are not going to do that then forget about it. Complaining about it to the world won’t help the problem, won’t solve anything, won’t do anything but make you more bitter, and probably hurt your business because people could usually care less to hear about your problems, they usually  have more serious things in their own lives to worry about than somebody else’s petty complaints

[Lobo]

Generally speaking, in the United States the owner of intellectual property (copyright, patent, whatever) must act to enforce that property right. There is little that any government agency can or will do to enforce such legal rights. That means that the owner of said property right must bring a civil action in court to force those improperly using his intellectual property to cease and desist, and perhaps to seek monetary damages for unauthorized use. Such processes are far too complicated for most individuals to take on without the assistance of experienced attorneys, and those folks do not work for free. Such legal actions might take years to resolve, and there is never any guarantee that one might recover any costs or damages in the end.

A shady operator may get away with any number of scams without ever being held to account, and if he has little or no assets to begin with there is little chance that he will ever be forced to pay for his offenses.

So, while it might be "against the law" unless you are willing to enforce your legal rights, and capable of paying the costs of doing so, you are left whistling in the wind.