Copying and copyright(ing) 'n' stuff

[JLSleather]

On 10/2/2019 at 10:35 AM, Rhale said:

Particle,  I’ll bet you are the only one to ever use a Stohlman pattern or design! LOL

The question there is not USING a stohlman pattern (Al and Tandy intended you use them) the issue would be SELLING the pattern.  Printed on every copy of that How To Make Holsters book -- copyright info.  

I've had THOUSANDS of people use my holster designs.  No worries - that's what I INTENDED them to be used for.  I'll go even further -- if you can find somebody SLOW enough to PAY YOU for what I gave away for free.. go ahead and sell it!  Just don't be upset when I'm talking to the guy and tell him he could have had that FREE.

 

7 hours ago, Lobo said:

...the owner of said property right must bring a civil action in court ...far too complicated for most individuals to take on without the assistance of experienced attorneys, and ...there is never any guarantee ... in the end.

... if he has little or no assets to begin with there is little chance that he will ever be forced to pay for his offenses... unless you are willing to enforce your legal rights, and capable of paying the costs of doing so, you are left whistling in the wind.

Yup, that's basically it right there.  Base reasons NOT to "enforce" your IP "right"?  

1) it's going to be expensive, time and money

2) if may not do any good. 

• I have a judgment for a civil matter.  After 20 years, I have never seen a dime.  That guy spent YEARS only working where he could work for cash so his wages weren't 'garnished', but didn't do ME any good at all. 
• And in another case, lawyers told me I COULD sue, but should think about it, since it would cost at least $5k to file and follow, and in the end I would probably get a percentage of the NOTHING those people own. So basically throwing away another 5 grand on top of what i had already lost.

So, if you go by the idea that you are "small" and "probably" won't be sued, that may actually end up being TRUE.  But, have some self-respect (if you are able) -- do you REALLY want to be the "hundred-aire" who only makes the hundreds by piggy-backing on somebody else's income source?@!  There are words for "that guy".  They are not nice words.

Oh -- you are free to distribute any information I provided as you see fit?  You can - if you like - set up a site and a bank account and sell patterns and comments I've offered - wherever I offered them.  Just remember I'm pretty "vocal", and if somebody asks me about it, I WILL tell 'em how and where you got "your" info.

So, HOW to NOT violate copyright rules (and maybe use a Stohlman pattern too)?  

I made and sell this.  I sketched all those rectangles myself and priced them accordingly    https://www.etsy.com/listing/385969090/leather-notebook-pattern-field-notes

And I also made (and still make) these.  https://www.etsy.com/listing/220872475/tooled-leather-revolver-gun-holster?ref=shop_home_active_5&frs=1  But I do not sell the pattern, I do not pretend, insinuate, or suggest or imply that the pattern is my creation.

 

 

[JLSleather]

On 10/1/2019 at 4:30 PM, particle said:

Regarding having 'legal' text at the bottom of my pattern product listings, that was simply to discourage people from distributing my holster patterns. Yes, since I had an adaptation of Stohlman’s tooling pattern in some of my files, that was a little ironic,

Not twisting your words. Those are your words.

[chrisash]

Not really clear on your point

Naturally you can make a patter and sell it to whoever you like, but the example you gave below, has no copyright as they have been around for years, and just copies of other peoples idea's, with maybe some tiny modification  themselves, with the only difference being the exact measurements, to copyright your idea has to be original, just like a pancake holster could only have been copyrighted by the original person who designed it and i guess he never followed up and let everyone use the basic design

I made and sell this.  I sketched all those rectangles myself and priced them accordingly    https://www.etsy.com/listing/385969090/leather-notebook-pattern-field-notes

[JLSleather]

It's a RECTANGLE.  You are correct - no copyright. That IS my point.

But the holster pattern IS COPYRIGHTED (says so on every copy of that  book).  Not sure what you're not keeping up with here.  You don't get to "slightly modify" it and make it "yours".  

I'm going to guess that since Tandy just made that book freely available to everybody about a month ago, they basically can't be bothered to pursue those who infringed it previously.  At least, not the ones so small that suing them would cost more than it would profit.

So.. to clarify.... lemme separate it for those who may need that:

• the one WITHOUT copyright protection (mine) i distribute. 
• the ones WITH copyright protection, I DO NOT distribute (you can buy that holster done that way,  but you cant by the pattern from me).

Edited October 19, 2019 by JLSleather

[chrisash]

So what part is copyright in a holster of which the basic design if from the 1800's or maybe even before as there is nothing distinctive about it that I can see, could be a novel fixing or something on the back though i guess but unlikely

Your actual images are definitely your copyright and cannot be copied, but you do not state what is and what is not copyright thereby leaving confusion

The actual design of the tooling may we be the items that a copyright as a design part, just the same as a painting or drawing can be

[Hildebrand]

What was copyrighted for the purposes of this discussion was the Al Stohlman floral carving pattern included with the sale of a holster makers pattern. 

[JLSleather]

41 minutes ago, Hildebrand said:

What was copyrighted for the purposes of this discussion was the Al Stohlman floral carving pattern included with the sale of a holster makers pattern. 

And my comment was not so much the copying, as the ridiculousness of copying somebody else and then insisting that others not copy "your" work 

He or she seems intent on arguing... same thing happened in the other thread (the one that started this). My speech is [mostly] english and generally purdy clear (TOO clear for some).  Maybe "over there" the game is just to see how many times they can convince you to reply? 

 

[JLSleather]

On 9/2/2019 at 10:22 AM, JLSleather said:

Now, here's the blog post ... https://www.jlsleather.com/coast-guard-charge-books/

And here's the link taken from that blog post for simplicity.... "...you can find many just by Google-ing “leather coast guard charge book”. ...'

Click that and see about a JILLION people taking what I GUESS WAS SUPPOSED TO BE "copies" of what I did. 

Okay, okay... after about a JILLION emails asking about these 'charge books', I'm going to list them as available for purchase/ordering again.  Many DON'T order them due to cost.  There are many people making and selling "charge books" for under $200 - I am not among them.

Part of why we cut those out was due to multiple people finding google searches of "charge book' in leather for under $200 ... and then wanting OURS for that amount.  I'll say it (not the first time I was not "politically correct") -- those under $200 charge books largely look like they were made by a child (I say largely because, to be fair, I have not seen ALL of them).  I'm apparently not the only one who noticed that, or the people contacting us would have just bought the one they previously found at a price they are willing to pay.

I don't anticipate a big upswing in the number of orders for these.  Actually, I suspect that I'll simply be replying to far less emails once the cost and time frame is clearly displayed.  Just a matter of getting to a clean, clear listing on the web page (which, I apparently will also do myself).

Still, we will not be offering - in any way or any place - to sell this pattern.  Not to worry - you can download it free of charge at https://www.leathercraftlibrary.com/product/1119/how-to-make-holsters-by-al-stohlman

 

Edited January 10, 2020 by JLSleather

[chuck123wapati]

I've read through some of this certainly not all of the comments but will add my two cents. My understanding about copyright laws is and I will use tee shirts for my example. Anyone can make a tee shirt because there is basically only one way to make a tee shirt so you cant copyright it because it has two holes for the arms one for the neck etc, nor can you copy right it because you made the arms an inch longer. You can copyright the cool design you put on, you can copyright the new material you created that you build it from or you can register you trademark that goes on it and then that is protected from being used by others but they can still make tee shirts, anyone can make a tee shirt and sell it as a tee shirt.  Same with holsters  a single action army has a certain shape and you cant make a single action army  holster without using that shape.  Stohlman used a shape in his pattern but anyone in about two minutes can find earlier examples that are exactly the same or darn close so his Holster design isn't really his to begin with and no one could prove you actually used his pattern, it a basic pattern for a single action army and it has to be shaped that way to fit the weapon, like a tee shirt. What you cant copy and sell as your own is Stohlmans art nor his books, same as the Harley Davidson logo, for example,  or anything above and beyond that changes his holster from the normal basic revolver holster like a special snap or  special tanning process for the leather etc. 

[chrisash]

JLS

I would like to make a suggestion, maybe without having my head bitten off

For marketing it is often seen as unwise to knock your competition, but far better to actually market YOUR product is a way that shows it's worth the money, normally online, by detailed photo's and great descriptions, they are the only things you can do to show your quality and the thought you have given to the product, to make people want it, and in this case for both looks and also use. For something like this no doubt it will be moved around so is there a protective cover just like ladies expensive handbags is so mention these points

Many will not understand wood or leather they just want a great product, so explaining the qualities of the materials used is also required for instance on your website you mention Leather on most pages but never give any information , it could be crap leather or from the best well known tanners available we all assume its veg tan but no mention on the page of any details

Just trying to help, and not telling you how to do your job but offering proven advice