Hand Tooling question concerning time frame

[chriscraft]

I feel that I’m slow at tooling. Question for those that tool, Wondering how long it should take to hand tool this logo? Obviously I would get faster on repeat patterns but just want to have an idea on how long it should take so I have a goal in mind  

 

the badge is 4” wide

 

Edited November 2, 2019 by chriscraft

[Mattsbagger]

Looks great! Speed isn’t the objective but quality. IMHO

[Scoutmom103]

That is beautiful work.

 

[chriscraft]

Since I started tooling, I’ve focused on quality verses quantity. Like you mentioned, Speed wasn’t the objective then.  I haven’t seen anyone in person tool leather in a very long time and never paid any attention as to how much time went into tooling. I just feel that I’m slow since I can’t compare myself to anyone else, side by side.  I know it’s not a race but I’d like to know what an average time frame it takes to complete work such as the sample I’ve provided. 

 I’ve always had a hard time judging time as To how much time it will take me to complete a project. My mind tends to think faster than my hands can keep up. My mind says for this project it will take me 2 hours but in reality it ended up taking me 4 hours. Double the time I predicted. 

I haven’t spent hundreds of hours tooling yet to be efficient. I’m still learning and probably always will be. 

 

Edited November 2, 2019 by chriscraft

[chriscraft]

Here is another example of my recent tooling. I have 8 hours into this piece. I originally thought I’d be able to complete it in about 4-5 hours. I was wrong like with the first pic I posted. 

 

[chuck123wapati]

That is awesome work no matter how long it took. 

[YinTx]

Slow draw McGraw here.  I couldn't tool that in 8 hours if I had practiced it 6 times.  It would take me a month of Sundays.

In all seriousness, it would take me at least 8 to 10 hours, and wouldn't be nearly as good.  There is production tooling, then there is art.  One is fast, the other is just going to take as long as it takes.  And then some probably.

YinTx

[chriscraft]

Thanks for the reply. I don’t mind spending a ton of time on items I’m gifting away to friends and family. 

  My issue has been on pricing my work. Am I spending a rediculous amount of time on a $60 item. I just don’t know how to go about it and have ended up just stopping trying to sell stuff over that issue.  I haven’t tried to sell anything over the past few years. Which has lead me to just stop tooling leather all together. Yeah, I’m not into making standard production leather goods. It’s just not for me.  I like and enjoy the challenge of drawing and tooling unique designs.

I just need to charge a price that I’ll be comfortable when making stuff so I can get back into tooling leather again. I do miss it.

Edited November 3, 2019 by chriscraft

[Lobo]

You are an artist. What you are producing is the images created in your mind, reduced to the artwork produced with a piece of leather as the medium.

There are millions of artists, but very few who will ever be paid fair value for their talents.

Personally, I did production-level work for many years. I used the services of a couple of very talented leather carving artists for those customers requiring that level of product. I have never had the talent to do much more than basketweave tooling. I made a pile of money in the leather business, but I never claimed to be much of an artist (I was able to envision new designs and production methods and convert those visions to marketable products, but that is an entirely different skill set).

We can do things because we love to do them, or we can do things because others like them enough to pay us for them. Each approach offers different rewards.

I wish you well.

[chrisash]

If people want superb items like that, they will pay the going price just like they do for LV or other items, your not selling to the average guy down the road, but to people who understand quality and quality costs

Time to get down to basic business sense  and work out how much your hour of work should be paid for a skilled tradesman then the cost of materials, include design time and all other costs, then add some real profit

With your skills you are only looking for well off people and they understand quality items are not cheap and that notebook will last a lifetime

Look at hermes goods and try to figure out what the actual costs are to make them, probably a tiny percentage of the selling price

Get free publicity by writing a story about yourself with images of your work and send it to all the top quality magazines in the states and hopefully one may do a article of you, imagine a free quarter page item on say Playboy about you  and your work

Good luck

Edited November 3, 2019 by chrisash

[chriscraft]

I was a t-shirt airbrush artist for many years. Most of my bread and butter was painting shirts for kids that were priced $8 to $16 

  Painting these kid designs didn’t make me feel like an artist. I did offer custom portraits and hot rods designs shirts. Prices for those custom T’s started at $60 and climbed up to $150. Once in a while I’d get a customer who appreciated the work and would place an order. I know that was a lot to spend on a five dollar t-shirt but a lot of time would go into painting such designs. 

 From my airbrushing experience, I do understand that my customer base wasn’t into high end artwork. I wasn’t setting up in locations trying to appeal to the high end market and I mostly sold $10 t-shirts.

I do believe there is a market for custom quality made leather goods. I’ve been teaching myself and trying to advance my tooling skills so I can produce quality leather heirloom items. My only experience is selling to the average working class worker such as myself. Thanks for helping me get my head straight and try to figure this out. 

 My wife and I are lucky to live in the north shore of Milwaukee. I need to sell to this clientele. Recently I met an artist that paints wildlife on canvas. She told me that it’s common for artist to struggle with pricing. That I should start by applying the amount I feel comfortable selling it at and multiply it by two. So if I think my Milwaukee police cover should sell for $125, then price it at $250 and not negotiate or haggle. I just don’t know if I can stomach that higher price range. 

 Yesterday my wife and I visited a local art gallery. While there I met the owner and we chatted about his sculptures. He then asked me if I did any art myself. I showed him photos of my work that were on my phone. He was impressed and asked if I would accept a commission from him. He would like me to make a field notes cover for his father. His father served in the Navy as a Navy Seal and would like the logo tooled on the cover. When he asked for price, I just couldn’t say $250, rather $170 came out. He didn’t hesitate and would like it completed before Christmas. When we left, my wife said he would have paid any amount. That he was really impressed with my craftsmanship and appreciates quality items. That’s why he wants one for his dad. 

I look forward to build this new cover. I’m excited to be able to hand tool the Navy Seal logo for someone special. This is what I’ve been training for all my life and I’m ready. I just need to work on pricing my new art form. 

Chris

[JLSleather]

I don't price buy the hour, and I also do not shop by the hour.  Some guy show me a poorly done carving in low rent leather, and tell me he wants $150 because it took him all day... WAIT>>>WHAT?@  So you want me to pay you for what... being slow?@!  Nope, I'm buying the item, and I'll consider the price accordingly.   This is also why we have no employees (and may never again).  We've seen SO many who 'clock in' at 7A, 'clock out' at 4P, and think they should be paid for 9 hours whether they actually DID anything or not.

But time does get considered, within a range.  I've had people tell me they spend DAYS making a tooled belt.  But I don't see that as my fault and don't feel that I should pay for that.  Our 'tooled belt'  page is getting a re-work right now, and time is a factor in that.  Without considering the layout - just the carving .... one design is largely bold strokes and takes an hour and change to carve.  Another design is a bit more ornate and requires 2 1/2 hours to do correctly.  If I know the designs I"m using, I can carve multiple belts in a long day.  Idea here is to maximize the time in the planning stage.  But by the time it's over, people will be able to get a custom belt, OR they can click-n-pick from some popular designs which do NOT all cost the same to carve.

In the drawing / layout stage, I've hit on something I liked "first try" and been done in half an hour.  Other times, I've obsessed - basically- over details to the point it took far longer.  But I don't charge based on that (that's MY responsibility) and the carving always goes smoother (and usually quicker) where I'm comfortable with the design so it usually all works out.

Your design, assuming the layout was done and it's just a matter of putting it on the leather and carving, could be carved in a couple of hours.  You didn't post a pic of the finished color of this one, but IF it was done in the same monochrome effect as the other then the color time is minimal and can be figured into the carve time.

OF course, you already know that in leather, actual "work' time is not the same as "completion time".  In a project that size, I would have far more time in DRYING than anything else.

Of note, your background - particularly around the fairy, or angel, or whatever - is pretty 'choppy'.  While this isn't "textbook form", in this case i actually LIKE it - almost hints at a 'halo' around the figure, and gel or antique or whatever will likely enhance that further.

This one the left takes considerably longer than this on the right (assuming you've matted away any "halo", rounded all edges with a spoon, etc).  Far more tool changes, textures, surfaces to mat, round, ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 This book took longer to COLOR than it did to carve.  Obviously the CG emblem was already designed, and the carving only required 7 or 8 tools... so not much time burned in switching tools. 

And the last could actually be called 'fast', since the lady sent us the bottom strap and asked us to make 2 straps with that design 26" x 2" (I think). Translation.. very little layout, about 5 tools (er was it 6), one-color color, .... 

 

 

So in teh end, it's really not possible to say "how much is a tooled belt?" or .. such.

[chuck123wapati]

1 hour ago, chriscraft said:

I was a t-shirt airbrush artist for many years. Most of my bread and butter was painting shirts for kids that were priced $8 to $16 

  Painting these kid designs didn’t make me feel like an artist. I did offer custom portraits and hot rods designs shirts. Prices for those custom T’s started at $60 and climbed up to $150. Once in a while I’d get a customer who appreciated the work and would place an order. I know that was a lot to spend on a five dollar t-shirt but a lot of time would go into painting such designs. 

 From my airbrushing experience, I do understand that my customer base wasn’t into high end artwork. I wasn’t setting up in locations trying to appeal to the high end market and I mostly sold $10 t-shirts.

I do believe there is a market for custom quality made leather goods. I’ve been teaching myself and trying to advance my tooling skills so I can produce quality leather heirloom items. My only experience is selling to the average working class worker such as myself. Thanks for helping me get my head straight and try to figure this out. 

 My wife and I are lucky to live in the north shore of Milwaukee. I need to sell to this clientele. Recently I met an artist that paints wildlife on canvas. She told me that it’s common for artist to struggle with pricing. That I should start by applying the amount I feel comfortable selling it at and multiply it by two. So if I think my Milwaukee police cover should sell for $125, then price it at $250 and not negotiate or haggle. I just don’t know if I can stomach that higher price range. 

 Yesterday my wife and I visited a local art gallery. While there I met the owner and we chatted about his sculptures. He then asked me if I did any art myself. I showed him photos of my work that were on my phone. He was impressed and asked if I would accept a commission from him. He would like me to make a field notes cover for his father. His father served in the Navy as a Navy Seal and would like the logo tooled on the cover. When he asked for price, I just couldn’t say $250, rather $170 came out. He didn’t hesitate and would like it completed before Christmas. When we left, my wife said he would have paid any amount. That he was really impressed with my craftsmanship and appreciates quality items. That’s why he wants one for his dad. 

I look forward to build this new cover. I’m excited to be able to hand tool the Navy Seal logo for someone special. This is what I’ve been training for all my life and I’m ready. I just need to work on pricing my new art form. 

Chris

I think you said something important when you discussed your possible clientele, Those police products are awesome and I don't know what a cop makes in  Milwaukee but out here the average officer would be hard pressed to buy a 250 dollar notebook cover no matter the quality or time it takes. That being said I think you have a great talent and product, the build time will shorten with experience so shouldn't be the only factor to consider when pricing your work. 

[chriscraft]

24 minutes ago, chuck123wapati said:

I think you said something important when you discussed your possible clientele, Those police products are awesome and I don't know what a cop makes in  Milwaukee but out here the average officer would be hard pressed to buy a 250 dollar notebook cover no matter the quality or time it takes. That being said I think you have a great talent and product, the build time will shorten with experience so shouldn't be the only factor to consider when pricing your work. 

 I now you are right. I’m a Paramedic making paramedic wage and too would not spend more than $50 on a leather cover for myself. It’s nice work I’m making, but not $250 nice. At least not for me. that higher price range was a suggestion I was given and I’m not sure I’ll ever use it. My gut says to charge police officers $125-$150 max and if they get crazy and want it two sided then charge a few bucks more. I see these tooled police covers selling as gifts and maybe retirement gifts where many ppl can pass a hat raising money to order one.  Like when I used to airbrush those few custom shirts. I don’t see myself quitting my day job to keep up with demand. These covers won’t go fast at $150 each. 

 JLS has lots of good points too. My tooling isn’t traditional and I still have a lot to learn. I have no interest in building a saddle or building gun holsters. They are plenty of places one can order a quality item like that from. I’ll always be a one-man-operation working from home so that means I don’t have any overhead. 

 This topic started with me trying to figure out how fast or slow my tooling is and what I’ve gathered is that it just doesn’t matter. I’ll get faster over time. Price stuff accordingly based on the item, not time. Thanks

[chrisash]

Chris

You should not just be looking at Milwaukee but the whole of the states and regarding average officers, that should not be your main market a far simpler item would be in their price range, the better market must be the hundreds of Police Chiefs, Sheriffs and others who have the money to buy your quality work. Top people in any service, 25 -50 year presentations, presidents of large companies. they are the ones with money to spend

[chriscraft]

43 minutes ago, chrisash said:

Chris

You should not just be looking at Milwaukee but the whole of the states and regarding average officers, that should not be your main market a far simpler item would be in their price range, the better market must be the hundreds of Police Chiefs, Sheriffs and others who have the money to buy your quality work. Top people in any service, 25 -50 year presentations, presidents of large companies. they are the ones with money to spend

 chrisash, I am thinking in that direction just starting slow keeping it local first. That way I can meet up with clients face to face. 

Here is a photo of one I made as a gift to a Police Chief. I gave this to him.  This is my second time tooling this same logo. My first time took me 3 hours. This second try, I was able to tool it in under 2 hours. I should have matted to outer beveling to get rid of the halo like JLS suggests or inverted my beveling. I personally don’t mind that halo effect but realize some may view it as a beginners mistake. So I’ll work on eliminating it to produce cleaner lines. It’s all a learning process. 

 

Edited November 3, 2019 by chriscraft

[noobleather]

Great work there with carving and tooling