Just curious about western holsters in the old days

[Davm]

I think the first Western holsters were the Slim Jim styles used with cap & ball revolvers.  Once cartridge guns came along the Double loop took over in popularity.   I'm going to throw out some thoughts.

1. The double loop was a really good design.  The skirt in back stiffened up the entire holster so that a single thick piece of leather could be used.  Many of the earlier Slim Jim styles had a lining, often of a different color such as yellow or red.  I use suede when I make that type but suede is actually wrong- the photos indicate a very thin but smooth type leather.  The basket weave of the day for many of these Slim Jim's was a "fishscale" and the Tandy mule foot stamp is sort of similar.  I think Wild Bill had patent leather holsters.  These holsters were worn high on the belt.  The belts on cartridge rigs had a lot of bullet loops- often the entire length and the buckle was often slid around and located under the holster so all the bullets were accessible.  On the double loop- most had very little tooling- maybe a repetitive stamp along the edge.  NOT all the handguns were peacemakers.  The townsfolk and tradesmen often carried a smaller Smith & Wesson 32 rimfire and the bullet loops etc. were for that size.

2. On the percussion guns, Wild Bill wrote that he would load up at the beginning of the day with a flask and used round balls but once outside, most carried combustible cartridges as fast loading, back up ammo. As stated the conical balls weren't as accurate and could get knocked out of alignment when being seated.

3 The Buscadero Rig- as much as I can figure- is a Hollywood thing or at least started around 1900. Butch Cassidy might have still been robbing trains but most of the "wild West" was fast disappearing.

4. The crossdraw- I always figured that was used on long barrel guns to make it easier to draw out of the holster.

 

[Professor]

4 hours ago, Davm said:

3 The Buscadero Rig- as much as I can figure- is a Hollywood thing or at least started around 1900. Butch Cassidy might have still been robbing trains but most of the "wild West" was fast disappearing.

I've seen an 1880's type partly canvas ammunition belt, possibly an army issue item, for the 45-70 cartridge that had a drop loop added to it for a holster. The holster was missing. No telling when the loop was added on.

 

4 hours ago, Davm said:

2. On the percussion guns, Wild Bill wrote that he would load up at the beginning of the day with a flask and used round balls but once outside, most carried combustible cartridges as fast loading, back up ammo. As stated the conical balls weren't as accurate and could get knocked out of alignment when being seated.

Wild Bill was known to fire off five rounds from each pistol at the end of the day in target practice, saving one loaded chamber in each revolver. He then cleaned the five empty chambers and reloaded.

The Colt 1851 Navy could be carried safely with six rounds loaded because there is a slot on the bottom of the hammer face that engages a pin between the nipples to keep the hammer from contacting the cap and the cylinder resting out of battery.

Most reproduction Colt C&B revolvers lack these pins though most have the slotted hammer face. I've made and installed these pins on a number of these replicas.

Extra cylinders could be ordered from the factory and carried pre-loaded for quick reloading.

[MikeRock]

Towns folk and horsemen in general carried a 'horse pistol' to kill an injured animal.  My grandpa carried either a H&R .32 or a S&W .38.  Dad remembered him killing one horse that was injured in an accident with a trolley, took the harness off and left the horse to lay for the trolley line to clean up.  That would be 1923'ish.  He kept his hoof pick, farriers knife (like an American made Swiss Army knife..a load of different tools in one) and pistol in a pouch.  I inherited them all.

God bless

[Wykoni]

On 1/5/2020 at 8:56 AM, chuck123wapati said:

I agree with everything except number 3. Don't give me a chance at 30 yards they are as accurate as any average modern handgun, you just cant load them as fast lol. In fact the sights were built at 100 yards on the early Colts and had a optional Butt stock. The trooper twist came about due to the fact that the gun was carried on the right backwards to allow use of the sabre with  the right hand which was carried on the left. People like Hickok weren't the average joe and most folks in the wild west didn't wear pistols all that much simply because they didn't want to get shot or shoot themselves by accident there were few doctors and no hospitals. The bad guys or hooligans, youngsters, etc, were just like todays dumbasses and were buried pretty early in life if they didn't respect their personal safety. 

I totally agree with you on accuracy,  not sure where the inaccuracy came from.  As to why the average guy didn’t carry, pistols were much more the expense.  As is today, you can buy a pretty good rifle or shotgun for less then most good quality pistols.  Further, rifles were more accurate, easier to shoot And great for bushwhacking.   There were very very few gunfights at noon.  Dr. Holiday carried a shotgun to the ok corral.  John Harding was known for using a rifle.  Pat Garret was shot with a rifle.  I think the famous picture of Billy the Kid shows him with both rifles and handguns.  I think the idea about inaccuracy came from the distance they shot at but most hunters understand the basic concept of why shoot at an animal at 100 yards if you can get within 50 yards or better yet 25.  Just good common sense.  Like today, most gun fights are 10-20 seconds with 2 to 3 shots fired at 7 feet or less.  That’s FBI stats.  Oh well interesting topic.

[chuck123wapati]

I'm reading a great book right now, The Great Plains by Walter Prescott Webb. It breaks down the use of weaponry during the years of westward migration. With the invention of the revolver being one of the primary reasons we could begin to establish ourselves on the great plains, and why the the Spanish gave up. Before 1840s, roughly,  all weapons' were single shot and most folks were advised on their weapons of choice by the people who put the wagon trains together. The Texas Rangers proved the worth of the revolver as a mounted weapon of choice that put them at even or a bit better than those they were fighting. Before that the Indians, and i mean no disrespect, had the upper hand and simply waited till the single shot was fired then rode in a filled their enemy with arrows. Its a great read for those wanting to understand the real reasons the west was won. 

[Dwight]

1 hour ago, chuck123wapati said:

I'm reading a great book right now, The Great Plains by Walter Prescott Webb. It breaks down the use of weaponry during the years of westward migration. With the invention of the revolver being one of the primary reasons we could begin to establish ourselves on the great plains, and why the the Spanish gave up. Before 1840s, roughly,  all weapons' were single shot and most folks were advised on their weapons of choice by the people who put the wagon trains together. The Texas Rangers proved the worth of the revolver as a mounted weapon of choice that put them at even or a bit better than those they were fighting. Before that the Indians, and i mean no disrespect, had the upper hand and simply waited till the single shot was fired then rode in a filled their enemy with arrows. Its a great read for those wanting to understand the real reasons the west was won. 

Not sure which one . . . but if my cousin was here . . . she could probably look in one of her books and tell  ua how Walter Prescott Webb is related to us. . . . and which cousin he is . . . lol.

One of the great things in my "Webb" family is the two threads that seem to run rampant thru the family . . . wanting to know how something WAS done . . . or wanting to know how to DO something for the first time.  This one was a past tense chaser.

But, thanks . . . I'll have to check that book out . . . I'll probably like it even if it didn't have the Webb moniker on it.

May God bless,

Dwight

[chuck123wapati]

1 hour ago, Dwight said:

Not sure which one . . . but if my cousin was here . . . she could probably look in one of her books and tell  ua how Walter Prescott Webb is related to us. . . . and which cousin he is . . . lol.

One of the great things in my "Webb" family is the two threads that seem to run rampant thru the family . . . wanting to know how something WAS done . . . or wanting to know how to DO something for the first time.  This one was a past tense chaser.

But, thanks . . . I'll have to check that book out . . . I'll probably like it even if it didn't have the Webb moniker on it.

May God bless,

Dwight

Wow that's neat info indeed. Its a great book so and discusses real facts about the history of the GP from Spanish exploration to government policies of the time. I too am a genealogy nut to the point of having my dna on ancestry, a person would be surprised where the old blood line has been lol. 

[Dwight]

10 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

Wow that's neat info indeed. Its a great book so and discusses real facts about the history of the GP from Spanish exploration to government policies of the time. I too am a genealogy nut to the point of having my dna on ancestry, a person would be surprised where the old blood line has been lol. 

Me too even . . . on the DNA from Ancestry.com . . . my wife's was basically England with a tad from Irelend tossed into the mix.

Mine hit the Heinz 57 . . . but the funny part was  I was always told German, Dutch, English, Irish, and Native American.  Ancestry  nixed the German and Dutch . . . added East Med (Israeli or close by) . . . French . . . Scottish . . . Nordic and way over in Eastern Europe . . . 

I'm planning on getting some good stories once i'm walking the streets of gold . . . find them all and get the fact line on what went down . . . 

But thanks again . . . on the book . . . Ebay had a paperback for 6 bucks delivered . . . it'll be one of my "lavatory library" tomes . . . 

May God bless,

Dwight

[chuck123wapati]

8 hours ago, Dwight said:

Me too even . . . on the DNA from Ancestry.com . . . my wife's was basically England with a tad from Irelend tossed into the mix.

Mine hit the Heinz 57 . . . but the funny part was  I was always told German, Dutch, English, Irish, and Native American.  Ancestry  nixed the German and Dutch . . . added East Med (Israeli or close by) . . . French . . . Scottish . . . Nordic and way over in Eastern Europe . . . 

I'm planning on getting some good stories once i'm walking the streets of gold . . . find them all and get the fact line on what went down . . . 

But thanks again . . . on the book . . . Ebay had a paperback for 6 bucks delivered . . . it'll be one of my "lavatory library" tomes . . . 

May God bless,

Dwight

58% England , Wales , northwestern Europe    31% Ireland and Scotland   7% Scandinavian  plus a few others  but Ancestry has changed the percentages a few times as they get more info.  When I first added it I was much more Scandinavian lol. Its an amazing thing that the good lord could give us the knowledge and ability to understand our roots, I think the world would be a better place if everyone knew where they came from and who they really were.

[Dwight]

1 hour ago, chuck123wapati said:

58% England , Wales , northwestern Europe    31% Ireland and Scotland   7% Scandinavian  plus a few others  but Ancestry has changed the percentages a few times as they get more info.  When I first added it I was much more Scandinavian lol. Its an amazing thing that the good lord could give us the knowledge and ability to understand our roots, I think the world would be a better place if everyone knew where they came from and who they really were.

In truth . . . we do live in a very small world . . . Europeans have lots of relatives here . . . we have lots of relatives there . . . most of which do not know one another . . . 

I read one time that if you knew all of the friends of all your friends . . . to go out 26 generations of friends knowing friends . . . you would know everyone in the world.  Sobering thought . . . 

But like you . . . I think it would do a lot of good if we all could see better the roots that make us who we are . . . physically, mentally, and emotionally.  Racism and bigotry would take a serious nose dive if a lot of people actually knew ALL of their ancestry.

The perfect example is one of the most racist bigots ever . . . Oprah . . . who claims she is super glad that two DNA tests proved there is no white people in her ancestry . . . but I've got news for her . . . she did not get that lighter skin tone by not going out in the sun. 

There's a white boy or two back there somewhere in her makeup . . . 

May God bless,

Dwight