Which Round Knife

[Ferryman]

Hi

i am fairly new to leatherworking but have made several belts etc in the past and repaired saddle bags for my own use.

i have only ever used a craft knife or rotary cutter up until now but have the chance to get a round knife.

Having searched the Internet I am trying to decide on either a C.S. Osborne or the Al Stolhman knife.

The Osborne is nearly twice the price of the Al Stohlman so I a wondering which would be the best choice for a newbie ?

Thank you

[fredk]

I'd go for the Osborne. afaik you can't really trust that the steel in the Stohlman is top grade these days.

[zuludog]

Although I haven't used either of those two makes, I'd go for the Osborne, as they have a better reputation. www.metropolitanleather.com sell Osborne tools at reduced prices

George Barnsley and Sons is a traditional Sheffield maker of leather tools, but they are not as well known, so I wonder if you've heard of them?. They sell a round knife for about £28 and a head knife, which has a single point, for about £16. They keep the cost down by only giving you a basic cutting edge, and you are expected to do the final sharpening & polishing yourself, but once you get there you only need to strop, and very occasionally use a fine stone. I have one of their head knives, and it's excellent. Find them via Google

Search YouTube for 'JH Leather'; she uses a head knife, though hers is a Dixons, which is no longer made. Also Search YT for 'sharpening a round knife'. The Tandy and the Osborne will also need some sharpening before you can get the best out of them

Edited February 11, 2020 by zuludog

[Ferryman]

@zuludog Yes I have seen one made by "A former Joseph Dixon Employee" on the bay for £48 but I am always wary.

 

I have seen the George Barnsley & Sons knives but have no experiences of the quality. (I will give them a call)

I much prefer to pay the extra for a quality product.

[zuludog]

I am happy enough with my George Barnsley head knife, and can vouch for the quality. The main drawback is that you must spend some time preparing it at first; I think it took me an afternoon with various grades of oil stones, wet& dry paper, and a strop

Round & head knives need a certain amount of practice and experience to learn how to use them, but at £16 you could try out the idea, then progress to a more expensive round knife if you wish

Still, it's your choice. I have a similar problem at the moment looking for new stitching chisels -- you can go round & round t'Net, YouTube, and websites, but in the end a lot of your decision is simply down to what you fancy, and my guess is that you fancy the Osborne

Edited February 11, 2020 by zuludog

[chuck123wapati]

Its not the cost or the name that makes a good knife its the person that sharpens that knife, either one is a good quality knife as both have good steel, spend the money you save for good quality sharpening stones and such.

[Ferryman]

I agree Chuck but poor steel will never hold an edge.

Whereas I would hope the known names would use better quality steel

[chuck123wapati]

25 minutes ago, Ferryman said:

I agree Chuck but poor steel will never hold an edge.

Whereas I would hope the known names would use better quality steel

Thank you. Poor steel or more accurately a poorly made knife will hold an edge but not as long. Makers may forge the knives but they don't make the steel, just like the wholesalers of hides from tanneries and discussions here about quality and who is responsible for such they don't really know the quality control of steel they purchase  to make their knives either. As a knife maker I can tell you there are dozens if not hundreds of different recipes nowadays for knife steel with minimal or no difference in edge holding quality after it has been tempered properly, and every type steel has different tempering and hardening techniques according to their particular composition. Saying its a certain type of steel sold as knife quality is of less consequence than the the hardening and tempering process that makes the quality of a knife and its ability to hold an edge. Kinda the same idea as buying a quality knife and using a rock from your garden to sharpen it when the guy who buys the proper stones and the cheaper knife will prevail and say his knife is the best.  I wont say which knife  brand is better because the quality  or edge holding ability is more opinion than fact and is often skewed by the sharpeners ability. Two knives of the same measured hardness will hold the edge the same no matter the price paid or the steel therein and I would bet that info is hard to find for either of the brands mentioned. I too would hope the known names would produce better quality knives and that was an assumption on my part.

[Ferryman]

Thank you Chuck, what I know about knife making could be written on the back of a postage stamp.

Over the years I have owned many knives, some would retain an edge others wouldn't. 

I think I need to work on my sharpening skills

[jcuk]

I had a Osborne round knife for 25 years loved it but it got damaged so i asked some if they could fix it,  only for it to come back in a worse state,  so i contacted the place i got it from all those years before ( H WEBBER & SONS ) to if they could supply me with a new handle and brass ferrule they ask why so when i told them they said send it back to them and they will send me a new one,  their tools are guaranteed for life thought that was great customer service which it is especially as the damage was not a failing of the knife.  Sadly though the new knife was not as good as the old one can get it sharp but will not hold a edge as long as the old one. If you are serious about doing leather work long term, the round knife is one of the tools, for some,  is indispensable i know i would not be without one. So if you look at EBAY UK  check saddlers tools the are some older Osborne models there and Dixons, Barnsley can't say what kind of condition they will be in but looking at some of them they seem ok, if not these have a good following too i know many saddlers who use them.

https://www.abbeyengland.com/solingen-round-knife-329-8376.html

https://www.vergez-blanchard.fr/boutique_us/fiche_produit.cfm?ref=3_604N4_125&type=31&code_lg=lg_us&num=2 various sizes

If you're wondering what i use , it's Knipshield knife - custom made in the USA - fantastic knife,  yes it is a lot more money but for something i use everyday not really,  i think the waiting for one at the moment is quite a long time. Also still have the Osborne and a single head knife no name but a great little knife only cost 13 pounds.

Hope this helps

JCUK

Edited February 11, 2020 by jcuk

[Ferryman]

Thank you JCUK that is most helpful.

I do find that the older tools had better quality steel. I have hedging tools made be Elwell and modern stuff cannot hold a candle to it.

[chuck123wapati]

11 minutes ago, Ferryman said:

Thank you JCUK that is most helpful.

I do find that the older tools had better quality steel. I have hedging tools made be Elwell and modern stuff cannot hold a candle to it.

I agree wholeheartedly, sadly quality control isn't as stringent as it used to be. if you do buy an older used knife pay close attention to the edge, how much wear and if it has been properly sharpened, knives can wear out in that the overall grind angle is lost or worn away through sharpening, over use or improper sharpening. very easy to fix other issues such as loose or damaged handles. I've bought a number of very good knives really cheap on ebay simply because the handles were damaged.

[jcuk]

Sorry got ahead of myself some of the knives on EBAY plus the one from Abbey maybe on the large for someone new to leatherwork as these can be a dangerous tool to use,  maybe a better knife for a someone new to the craft would be this and once you get more adept at using the knife you can invest in a larger model. I started with one similar to this.

https://www.abbeyengland.com/barnsley-single-head-knife-552.html

Just be carful when using a round knife or any knife keep your free hand behind the cutting edge, if you can watch some good videos on how to use a round knife. when i  get a bit more time will post some which might help you.

Hope this helps 

JCUK

 

[jcuk]

Hi again he is a video that you may find useful also have a look at some of the other videos he has showing you how to sharpen and maintain the round knife and other tools. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUgZjMPw0AA

Hope this helps

JCUK

[Ferryman]

Thanks JC 

I will check his videos out.

I have had these fingers for 72 years and would like to keep them so will probably go for a head knife to start with.

Edited February 12, 2020 by Ferryman

[Hardrada]

On 2/11/2020 at 12:44 PM, jcuk said:

these have a good following too i know many saddlers who use them.

https://www.abbeyengland.com/solingen-round-knife-329-8376.html

Thanks for posting that link. I ordered one. Still waiting to hear from them about shipping costs, though.

I wanted one of these: https://www.ds-leder.de/borger-habmondmesser-mittel.html, but they never got back to me regarding shipping of a small parcel to Canada.

Edited February 12, 2020 by Hardrada

[zuludog]

1 hour ago, Ferryman said:

Thanks JC 

I will check his videos out.

I have had these fingers for 72 years and would like to keep them so will probably go for a head knife to start with.

As I think I've already mentioned, have a look at YT videos by JH Leather, she uses a head knife for most of her work

She also has a good video on sharpening a head knife........and an equally good one on the saddle stitch, which she sometimes calls the double hand stitch

[jcuk]

31 minutes ago, Hardrada said:

Thanks for posting that link. I ordered one. Still waiting to hear from them about shipping costs, though.

I wanted one of these: https://www.ds-leder.de/borger-habmondmesser-mittel.html, but they never got back to me regarding shipping of a small parcel to Canada.

No worries Abbey use to ship to me in the middle east good rates 

 

14 minutes ago, zuludog said:

As I think I've already mentioned, have a look at YT videos by JH Leather, she uses a head knife for most of her work

She also has a good video on sharpening a head knife........and an equally good one on the saddle stitch, which she sometimes calls the double hand stitch

 Yes have a look at this link very good use of a single head knife

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KU5IzvX3lrc

Hope this helps

JCUK

 

 

[johnv474]

Of those discussions I have seen on this topic, there are several that regularly get recommended.

The old standby head/round knives would be CS Osborne, Barnsley (if you can find one), or Vergez Blanchard.  These cost between $50-$120.  So far as I can tell they are all made from a similar grade of steel and are typically forged.  They tend to be a mild steel (if that is the correct term), which is relatively easy to sharpen but needs touched up regularly.

The default choice for most is to buy whatever is sold at the local leather store: Tandy.  I don't regularly see the Craftsman or Stohlman brand recommended, but many people end up owning them anyway due to the Tandy being everywhere.

In terms of quality, in other discussions, one head knife that regularly gets recommended is the Weaver Master Tools head knife.  This costs about $91.  I consider this a safe bet even though I do not own one.

If those prices are too high, there are some cheaper options.  One option is to buy a vintage knife from an auction such as Ebay.  In this way a person might get an older Osborne or Rose head knife and save a few dollars.

There are high end, custom makers, as well.  These tend to have excellent finishing, better steels, and a revised design--in some cases, improvements.  Examples (of many--I am sure to be missing some) include Leather wranglers, Chartermade (I'm not sure if he makes head knives but makes knives), Doldokki, and so on.  These knives tend to be in excess of $200.  There are several notable makers I'm skipping here, but not for any reason.

There are also some super-cheap knifes available on Amazon.  I would not expect a no-name $25 knife to hold an edge all that great.  It might start out sharp, though.

If the above are not a good option, a person can repurpose other knives that have a similar shape.  Look for a short (3" or less, I'd say) knife with a deep belly and long cutting edge (lots of swoop in the blade shape).  A person will likely have to do some grinding, etc., but a knife such as an Ulu, Benchmade Nestucca, or Wander Tactical Tryceratops can be made to imitate a round/head knife (but for more money than the non-custom options above).

The most recent option I have selected personally is the round/head knife made/sold by KevinLeatherTools (of CrazyCut fame).  He makes knives from D2 tool steel (an improvement over CS Osborne, etc.).  This steel ought to be harder so edge holding ability is improved at the expense of more difficulty sharpening.  He has models for between $45-$60, shipped.  However, they take about a month to arrive.  This steel is not the absolute ultimate but no one I'm aware makes head knives out of any of the so-called super steels (which did not exist when CSO, Blanchard, etc. developed their blades).  Mine is set to arrive Monday so soon I'll know better.

For the moment I use CS Osborne round knives because it was the first one I bought.  It has taken a fair amount of work to make it how i like (shortened handle to fit my hand, changing sharpening angle and putting on a better edge than the factory offers).  I don't regret the purchase but want to spend more time using and less time maintaining.

 

Edited February 29, 2020 by johnv474
add'l options

[MikeRock]

A tool seller friend of mine has an old Osborne, Newark, for sale for $50.  I just sent him an email to see if it was sold yet.  Good knives are fun to own and use.  Poor ones........well, not so much.

God bless

[RockyAussie]

On 2/13/2020 at 6:25 AM, Hardrada said:

Thanks for posting that link. I ordered one. Still waiting to hear from them about shipping costs, though.

I wanted one of these: https://www.ds-leder.de/borger-habmondmesser-mittel.html, but they never got back to me regarding shipping of a small parcel to Canada.

I think that ( The Solingen round knife) happens to be the brand of a couple of round knives I have been using for many years now. There is no writing on them I can see but they have the spade impression in the handle. You can see one of them in use in this video I made  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JAPRs6tx2w

 

[Hardrada]

They (Abbey) still haven't shipped mine!!

Edited March 1, 2020 by Hardrada

[philg9]

Ah the round knife, this is a thing that is close to my heart as it is oine of the back bone sof my daily life as a harness maker.  Without a round knife, my world would not be complete.  Over the years I've been through all sorts, learnt lessons and had my fingers burnt  ( and cut them  ! yes, the trick is to learn how not to cut yourself with these )

I do have my views on these but it all depends what you want a round knife to do and what leathers you are working with.  I only use my round kniives for skiving the ends of straps of various widths right up to 5-6 inches wide for certain parts of the harness I make. I never use them upright on the point to cut long strips or to cut out shapes. If I saw someone using one of my round knives for this I would ask them to put the knife down and never do that agin. A half head knife is there for that job.

 

What do I feel is the best and the worst. This has only formulated through 25 years of hard learnt experience.   First off. Modern made ones, me personally I would not entertain them in my workshop for the work I do. I only work with English oak bark tanned leathers from Bakers in Devon and work with anything from 2 MM shoulder through 4 and 5 -6  MM  heavy harness backs and bridle leathers.  ( I apologise to folk in the USA, I have no idea what the equivalent  MM is in OZ weight,  in the UK, we work in thickness not weight)     

I need a knife that is finer in weight, as in the thickness of the metal, this varies greatly and thicker metal blades do not do it for me, skiviong down heavier leather see's the kniofe kiond of jam or wedge when you start skiving, a thinner blade is much more condusive for a nice smooth action. Most modern blades for me are too thick. ~They tend to need a bigger bevel to gain an edge whereas a thin metal blade knife has much less of an angle, it is this one thing that makes a blade more condusive to cut like butter, with thick blade knives you have to push much more to get a noce skive going, a thick blade is going to be better for using upright on the points for cutting strips or shapes  if you wish to use one for that. 

For me personally, the only round knives I will entertain having for every day use is the old European makes, like 40-50 years plus in age.   The quality of the steel far excels any other round knife I have tried and used, and are better again than old Dixons or Barnsley's.    There were many European makers at one time but for me Blanchard stand out from the rest. Modern Vergez Blanchard are crap compared to the old originals.   My favourite and best knife I have for everyday use for quality, thickness of metal which is thi and is perfect for me and the ability to hold the best edge that really is razor is an old French Fries Bost.    If a knife is old, classed as antique, European made like French, German, Belgian, Swedish etc then you will have a best freind for life and you will never need to look for another one.   I cannot bring myself to recommend new modern knife makes to anyone as I have handled many over the years, various knives owned by various people or ones I've bought before I ended up with the ones I have. Everyones learning curve is to go through them until you find what works best for you and old is best for quality of steel, even what folk think is the best modern made knife, it still will not be a patch on old ones.  I do have a small modern Osbourne, it came woith another tool I was after, I wouldnt have bought the knife if it was on it's own, I'm  not being rude but it is the worst thing I've ever had a go with,   it has about the same very poor edge performance as stainless steel , in the fact  the steel is way too thick and it just does not keep an edge no matter how hard you try. it's not for me, I've almost threw it in the bin twice, I bet old Osbourne far excell modern ones, I havent used an old Osbourne.   Modern solingen knives, not for me,   the ability to hold and maintain an edge is almost non existant and when you do get one I find I have to keep stropping it every 2 minutes, I have a modern Soliongen half head knife and it is crap.   I also have a modern Don Carlos French pattern head knife, again, it is crap, it is good for hacking at rough stuff though.  I have an old Dixon and a modern one I got stuck with as just before Dixons closed they were offering really knock down prices to shift stock, the modern one needs melting and turning into cooking untensils as that's all its good for.  Yes I have a bit of a collection of round knives I've ended up with from over the years in the search to find what suits me best.  I also have a modern Barnsley, again hardly worth the steel it was made with, and again, an old original Barnsley is really good.  

Many folk I have discussed round knives with have all said that once they have found their way to old antique aged European ones they have mever gone back or looked for anything else.

I use 4 different width's of Old Blanchards from 4  3/4 inches across the tips up to 8 inch across the tips for skiving wide straps and the Bost round knife.  they do come up for sale of you keep your eye out and are priced differently according to the sellers idea of worth.  I have bought and kept the round knives I have that have passed the test for being a go to knife, anything from £40 for a lucky find up to £120 for a very old Blanchard that is in very good condition as in the blade hasnt been wrecked and re shaped or poorly sharpened over the years. 

The picture is an old Blanchard   4  3/4 across the tips

[philg9]

This old Blanchard is 7 inches across the tip's and for skiving down the ends of wide straps like plough back bands, as the metal is thin, its performance and keeping a keen edge is superb.

[philg9]

This is the above 7 inch pictured on the left against an old Blanchard 8 inch on the right.  The pics were taken as I bought them before I put them to the strop to bring them up to speed.  Me personally I much prefer the round profile on the front leadoing edge, some folk prefer a more flat profile. Metals used in modern made knives cannot come anywhere near to the performance of old knives and the only recommendation I can give folk is to save your money, be patient and keep your eye out for old ones at least 40 years plus and preferably pre 2nd world war or thereabouts, you wont regret it. In the USA for pricing equivalent, if you see an old Blanchard for $150  grab you self the best freind you'll ever likely to have.

Edited March 22, 2020 by philg9