A new machine?

[toxo]

Despite read these pages and many more beside, I'm thinking about another machine and have to ask you guys to help me out. My .17 Hornet has been in the cabinet for far too long and I'm thinking about turning it into a cylinder arm machine. My evolution has taught me that I almost certainly won't need to go heavier than handbag types, maybe a decent belt but I've got the trusty Durkopp for that. What can I get for around £700 - £800? New would be nice or as near to it as I can get. Don't mind clones as long as they're reliable and I don't have to hunt for a manual. Pretty please guys?

[Matt S]

For £7-800... probably nothing new. The most popular for handbags and the like would be either small-cylinder types like the Pfaff 335 or Adler 69 and their derivatives (2" nose, usually used with TKT40 thread or smaller), or larger cylinder types like the Singer 153 and its derivatives (3" nose, TKT20 thread and smaller). There are some newer designs like the Juki 246 and 341, and their clones, which blur the lines between these groups.

For that sort of budget you'd be able to get a second-hand clone from a dealer, or maybe an old "premium" brand machine. Private sales can result in some real bargains but you can also buy a lemon.

[toxo]

Thanks Matt. Just feelers at the moment. Can stretch it for something good,  just have to justify to myself for what is just a hobby at the moment although I'll have to start getting some money back soon.

[Matt S]

2 hours ago, toxo said:

Thanks Matt. Just feelers at the moment. Can stretch it for something good,  just have to justify to myself for what is just a hobby at the moment although I'll have to start getting some money back soon.

If you're happy to be patient, do some homework and take a bit of a risk you can often find good used machines well within your budget as private sales. Helps if you're mechanically minded but there's nothing too complicated inside a common industrial sewing machine. Design lineages like the Pfaff 335 and Singer 153 are very well documented and supported with parts and accessories of varying qualities. The Singer 17 family is another good small-cylinder choice, though a bit old fashioned these days, even with current-production Seiko TEs regarding features and options. I like buying "good, used" premium machines -- they tend to hold their value more than Chinese machines and you can sometimes increase their value by doing a little restoration and upgrading

Otherwise you're looking at about £1200 for a new clone from a dealer in this category. Price for a "good, used" premium machine from a dealer would be similar, depending on a few factors.

[RockyAussie]

Hey @toxo, I am putting together a few comparisons on different cylinder machines and their useful differences at the moment. This will focus mostly on the working cylinder end where all the important to making stuff happens. It will cover things like the thickness of leather they can handle,sizes of bobbins, how far the needle is from the left edge and the size of the cylinder at the end, Thread size capabilities and a few other bits. These things as a maker of a wide variety of products mean more to me than a lot of the information I find available on the dealer web sites generally. I am waiting on a few more dealers pictures to finish this off and hope to have this post up next week sometime. Here below are a couple of the pictures of the type of thing I am talking about -  

[toxo]

My God Brian! I'm beginning to suspect you're a alien with your work output! I get tired just reading about what you get up to.

Never having used a cylinder arm before I'm gonna need educating but with my focus on handbags at the moment I hadn't thought that end was that important. I guess it must be for some else you wouldn't be focussing on it. Using my crystal ball the only other accessory I might want/need  is a binder. I'm watching this space.

Edited March 7, 2020 by toxo

[toxo]

I found this one but I'm thinking the extra costings would make it too expensive plus why won't the seller take PayPal? And it's not set up so can't test it.

A service/overhaul.

A servo motor.

Converting back to "normal" sewing.

Cost of collecting

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pfaff-335-cylinder-arm-sewing-machine-awning-canopy-valance-edge-ready/114109301465

Edited March 7, 2020 by toxo

[mikesc]

I know plenty of people ( especially businesses ) who will not take paypal..including myself..

From a seller's point of view..customer pays via paypal..you send the item..customer receives it, even signs for it, then says that it never arrived, or was damaged, or was not as described..paypal blocks the sellers money..and it stays blocked..paypal always side with the buyer.

paypal say that they can take back the money during 90 days..they have been known to take back the money after a year has gone by because a customer raises a dispute..

If you sell something ( lets say it might be leather hats )  and it goes successful, so you get a rush of orders, paypal can, and often do..block your money because you are making too much too fast, in their opinion..So you can be working, but not receiving any money.

As a seller, I would not touch paypal with someone else's bargepole.

YMMV

[toxo]

5 minutes ago, mikesc said:

I know plenty of people ( especially businesses ) who will not take paypal..including myself..

From a seller's point of view..customer pays via paypal..you send the item..customer receives it, even signs for it, then says that it never arrived, or was damaged, or was not as described..paypal blocks the sellers money..and it stays blocked..paypal always side with the buyer.

paypal say that they can take back the money during 90 days..they have been known to take back the money after a year has gone by because a customer raises a dispute..

If you sell something ( lets say it might be leather hats )  and it goes successful, so you get a rush of orders, paypal can, and often do..block your money because you are making too much too fast, in their opinion..So you can be working, but not receiving any money.

As a seller, I would not touch paypal with someone else's bargepole.

YMMV

I've been on the end of that as well. Sold a perfectly good  expensive Schmidt and Bender scope to a guy in Scotland I had to take it back with a rattle in it and had to pay for the repair but when distance buying what guarantees are there that you're going to get what you paid for in a one time transaction? Different of course with reputable dealers.

[dikman]

Mike, while I have no doubt you know what you're talking about re-paypal, to say that they always favour the buyer isn't quite correct. My experience, with a $500+ item, was not good, it took me three months and I only got a refund when I finally involved the Australian financial authorities (and even then they still insisted that they were in the right to refuse me!). I know of others with similar experiences.

Back on topic, toxo, if you're at all mechanically inclined then do the servicing yourself. Manuals are generally available for most machines, plus you have this forum as a resource, and in general these machines are not that complicated once you get into them. Save yourself some money.

Servomotors - you don't have to buy the most expensive one, many of the "cheaper" ones are quite satisfactory.

If it has a binder then there's not much you can do about the cost of standard feet etc, other than search ebay/aliexpress.

Collecting, just be grateful you're in England, where everyone lives close by (relatively speaking), here in Oz long distances are par for the course.

[toxo]

1 minute ago, dikman said:

Mike, while I have no doubt you know what you're talking about re-paypal, to say that they always favour the buyer isn't quite correct. My experience, with a $500+ item, was not good, it took me three months and I only got a refund when I finally involved the Australian financial authorities (and even then they still insisted that they were in the right to refuse me!). I know of others with similar experiences.

Back on topic, toxo, if you're at all mechanically inclined then do the servicing yourself. Manuals are generally available for most machines, plus you have this forum as a resource, and in general these machines are not that complicated once you get into them. Save yourself some money.

Servomotors - you don't have to buy the most expensive one, many of the "cheaper" ones are quite satisfactory.

If it has a binder then there's not much you can do about the cost of standard feet etc, other than search ebay/aliexpress.

Collecting, just be grateful you're in England, where everyone lives close by (relatively speaking), here in Oz long distances are par for the course.

I hear ya But a basic servo = £120 with ENP, Even from Kent to Ruislip is gonna cost around £80 plus AND involves navigating the dreaded M25 (The London ring road. They call it the car park). By the time you get home it'll feel like an Aussie trip and you need a lie down in a darkened room. Stuff like changing out the hand wheel for bigger is personal choice but the parts needed to restore to normal and anything broken Won't leave much change out of £200 I'm guessing. I would probably take it on if it had been recently used and I could see it running.

[dikman]

Fair enough, I wasn't thinking about having to navigate London traffic!

Keep looking......

[mikesc]

Sounds like OZ paypal and EU paypal are two different animals..

How much are College Sewing asking nowadays for a jack 550 watt servo motor with EPN ?

 

Edited March 7, 2020 by mikesc

[Matt S]

13 hours ago, mikesc said:

How much are College Sewing asking nowadays for a jack 550 watt servo motor with EPN ?

About £120.

20 hours ago, toxo said:

I found this one but I'm thinking the extra costings would make it too expensive plus why won't the seller take PayPal? And it's not set up so can't test it.

A service/overhaul.

A servo motor.

Converting back to "normal" sewing.

Cost of collecting

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pfaff-335-cylinder-arm-sewing-machine-awning-canopy-valance-edge-ready/114109301465

That's about 5 miles up the road from me. Tempting, as I'm missing a small cylinder machine, however I'm quite keen to keep the ecosystem I've got with my Seikos and don't want to have to keep up with different needles, bobbins and feet. As others have said, servicing it yourself is a useful skill to learn and not that difficult (if I can do it anyone can). Conversion for flat sewing should be a fairly simple job and can be done with Chinese 335-type parts. Paypal is an expensive way of taking payments, or at least it used to be -- a lot of private sellers JCBA -- cash or BACS is less of a ballache. 

There will be other machines closer to you -- patience! 

On 3/7/2020 at 8:57 AM, RockyAussie said:

Hey @toxo, I am putting together a few comparisons on different cylinder machines and their useful differences at the moment. This will focus mostly on the working cylinder end where all the important to making stuff happens. It will cover things like the thickness of leather they can handle,sizes of bobbins, how far the needle is from the left edge and the size of the cylinder at the end, Thread size capabilities and a few other bits. These things as a maker of a wide variety of products mean more to me than a lot of the information I find available on the dealer web sites generally. I am waiting on a few more dealers pictures to finish this off and hope to have this post up next week sometime. Here below are a couple of the pictures of the type of thing I am talking about -   

Brian, another excellent contribution to the community! I'd be happy to supply you with similar information and photos for my Seiko LCW8 (equiv. Singer 153 and its descendants -- Adler 169, Consew 223 and CB227 I think) and Adler Kl5/Singer45K/GA-5/CB2500.

[toxo]

This looks better. Looks like it has a servo with eps. Hasn't been used for two years. What's the 6B for? And the H2S? Not sure if I want to stretch that far but at least it looks like it won't take much to get it going and I'd rather travel to the outer reaches of Essex than go around the M25. What do you guys think?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pfaff-Industrial-Sewing-Machine-Cylinder-Arm-Walking-Foot/223538687170?hash=item340bf1acc2:g:CI4AAOSw78hc9AN2

Edited March 8, 2020 by toxo

[RockyAussie]

10 hours ago, Matt S said:

Brian, another excellent contribution to the community! I'd be happy to supply you with similar information and photos for my Seiko LCW8 (equiv. Singer 153 and its descendants -- Adler 169, Consew 223 and CB227 I think) and Adler Kl5/Singer45K/GA-5/CB2500.

I will look forward to your input Matt.   What started as a little thought to stop people buying the wrong machine to start with has started to take on a marathon of digging up information which often does not match up between suppliers. 

@toxo I am waiting on some more information to come in but I would like to lead you away from the Pfaff 335 style to start with. Most always they are set up for binding and that means they come with a needle a full 9mm in from the edge. That is NOT ideal for gusset work. The thickness they can handle is 10mm if that, and that is less than the handles and perhaps the base on you Monte Carlo as shown below for others to understand. The bobbins on these old ones are only around 21x9mm and with 138 (20m) thread you dont get very far before its empty again. Another thing with these Pfaff 335 is that the feed dog does not oscillate unless it is a very rare P version. A way better alternative to the small cylinder range would be the Techsew 2600 which has a needle 7mm in from the edge, an oscillating dog foot and a M style bobbin of nearly twice the capacity of the other. 25x11 or 1"x3/8".  If you are doing belts believe me an M style is very desirable. It is I think a Juki LJ-341 clone.   https://www.techsew.com/us/techsew-2600-pro-cylinder-leather-industrial-sewing-machine.html

That said If you don't have a good working skiver to start with I would steer you more toward the Techsew 2750 or the Cowboy 6900 as they have the needle still close to the edge at 7mm, large M bobbins and will give you a full 13mm (1/2") leather thickness sewing. They will also get you up into the thicker thread 207 (13M) threads which you may want by the look of your Monte Carlo.

[dikman]

17 minutes ago, RockyAussie said:

What started as a little thought to stop people buying the wrong machine to start with has started to take on a marathon of digging up information which often does not match up between suppliers.

Which is probably why no-one has done it before. Beats me how you're finding the time to do this, Brian.

[toxo]

1 hour ago, RockyAussie said:

I am waiting on some more information to come in but I would like to lead you away from the Pfaff 335 style to start with. Most always they are set up for binding and that means they come with a needle a full 9mm in from the edge. That is NOT ideal for gusset work. The thickness they can handle is 10mm if that, and that is less than the handles and perhaps the base on you Monte Carlo as shown below for others to understand. The bobbins on these old ones are only around 21x9mm and with 138 (20m) thread you dont get very far before its empty again. Another thing with these Pfaff 335 is that the feed dog does not oscillate unless it is a very rare P version. A way better alternative to the small cylinder range would be the Techsew 2600 which has a needle 7mm in from the edge, an oscillating dog foot and a M style bobbin of nearly twice the capacity of the other. 25x11 or 1"x3/8".  If you are doing belts believe me an M style is very desirable. It is I think a Juki LJ-341 clone.   https://www.techsew.com/us/techsew-2600-pro-cylinder-leather-industrial-sewing-machine.html

That said If you don't have a good working skiver to start with I would steer you more toward the Techsew 2750 or the Cowboy 6900 as they have the needle still close to the edge at 7mm, large M bobbins and will give you a full 13mm (1/2") leather thickness sewing. They will also get you up into the thicker thread 207 (13M) threads which you may want by the look of your Monte Carlo.

 

Thanks Brian. Great information for a newbie. Hadn't even thought about distance from the edge and I can see where it would matter. Trouble is they're very expensive and you don't see used ones very often in the UK. However, even though I've never sold a single piece of leather in my life YET,  I've always believed in having the right tools for the job. Another couple of cliches, buy once cry once and start the way you mean to go on. I can feel my budget stretching by the minute. Any cheaper suggestions welcome.

[toxo]

It seems Brother machines are not highly rated but what about something like this?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-S335-CYLINDER-ARM-WALKING-FOOT-WITH-UNISON-FEED-INDUSTRIAL-SEWING-MACHINE-/143139355317?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10

[dikman]

It's a Pfaff 335 clone, so the points made by RockyAussie re- the Pfaff 335 will apply to this one.

[RockyAussie]

2 hours ago, toxo said:

Any cheaper suggestions welcome.

As @dikman said above is true. A cheaper alternative and a pretty good start off machine is the 227R clones. Techsew 2700 or CB 227R are a couple of them. Needle from edge is about 7mm, smaller diameter than the others I recommended but at the expense of a smaller bobbin. The bobbin is still bigger than the old 335 being a G style at around 22x10mm. The stitch length is shorter at a max 5mm but that's not too bad. Threads can go down to #45 (60M) and up to 207. In standard form you only get 10mm of thickness leather to go through but with a 190 system needle you can adjust the needle bar up to get a 1/2" (13mm) leather through. 

[mikesc]

I'm wondering if you can even get Techsew brand machines in the UK, ( where toxo is ) without shipping them in new from Ron in the USA ?

Or Cowboy brand..without importing them from the USA

Shipping  and import duties and VAT will add a considerable amount on..Plus the prices have gone up in the USA due to "tariffs", which makes the end cost of one shipped from USA higher again.

I'm pretty sure that outside of the USA, Canada  and Australia those two "clone brands" are very rare and and that the Juki etc type clones are sold under other names..I see far more Adlers, Pfaffs, and Singers in Europe and the EU than any of the clone brands, be they new or used..with the exception of those I mention below..and maybe Zoje..You look at the big dealers like College Sewing..Neither Techsew nor Cowboy figure anywhere on their sites, as machines, nor spares for ...

The Global brand might be an equivalent to techsew ?..Quite a few dealers of those in the UK

Or Highlead ..

Cowboy equivalents are available from Sieck in Germany.

http://www.sieck.de/en/machines/sewing/triple-transport-machines/

Edited March 9, 2020 by mikesc

[Constabulary]

Cowboy / Hightex machines are sold by Frank Brunnet in Germany.

You still can import them from Germany w/o paying Custom fees - this "may" end by the end of 2020 (but no one knows).

https://hightex-germany.de/

https://naehmaschine-shop.com/naehmaschinen/

Edited March 9, 2020 by Constabulary

[mikesc]

Ah..It's Hitex..Thanks

I've never been able to get the hightex-germany.de site to switch to English..Loads of articles there in English..but no way to switch the language..despite the UK flag on the front page..

Apparently..these people Franklinco are the UK Hitex distributers.

https://www.franklinco.co.uk/sewing-machines/

CB3200 ready to go inc stand / table with reducer and servo around £1,579.17 / 1,810.71 Euro inc VAT

Makes that machine USD 20.00 cheaper ( inc VAT ) in the UK than in the USA.

Edited March 9, 2020 by mikesc

[toxo]

Thanks again guys. This is brilliant stuff for those of us who don't know the difference between a clone and a tractor. I will peruse with interest after I've cooked the dogs dinner. (I'm having a pastie.  :( )