mikesc Posted March 29, 2020 Report Posted March 29, 2020 (edited) Just took a break to add.. Don't fret the needle size too much..When you look at the actual diameter of the hole made in any textile ( and textiles close up again around the hole unlike leather, which does close up again, but not nearly so much ) by that size of a fine needle, like a 12 or a 14 or a 16..it is huge compared to the size of the virus diameter ,each SARS-CoV-2 virion ( Covid 19 ) is approximately 50–200 nanometres in diameter..and the droplets containing them, expelled by someone infected when they sneeze or cough are > 5-10 μm in diameter...The viruses could set up a viral marching band a 100 viruses and more across and still march "side by side" through the hole left by a size 12 or 14 needle..What is fairly important is to match the thread size with the needle size ( there is a "thread to needle" size chart that wiz links to ..and whose URL I cannot remember ATM ...? ) even a needle up to a size 120 would be fine..providing that the thread is matched to it so as to "fill" the holes left by it as much as possible..the surface tension of the droplet ( sneezed or coughed droplets do not have much surface tension..less than a drop of water ) when it encounters a porous barrier, such a textile, and the surface texture and physical and chemical properties of the textile ,is more important..Droplets ( and hence the viruses ) last / "live"* longer on smooth surfaces such as plastic and stainless steel ( although less on copper and silver** and some other metals ) ..they "live" for less time on paper and most textiles. *"live"..There is "debate" about applying the term "live" to viruses.. ** Do not drink silver solution, anyone recommending it is completely wrong, ( and probably scamming you ) it is dangerous ( can kill, certainly will not cure or prevent Covid 19, nor will it protect against it..But it will make you look like a smurf..and probably a dead smurf. Oh..and the reason that hospitals prefer things made from cotton or polyester cotton blends is nothing to do with their efficacy against viral infections as such..it is that hospital laundries ( or their outside contractors ) are set up to wash at between 60°c and 90°c to prevent infection and or parasites lingering between washes..a lot of other fibre blends cannot support those temperatures ( some even melt ) so they prefer cotton or "polycotton" , so as to be able to use standard washing procedures , they are not set up to run "special temperature washes" for unknown blends of unknown man made fibres..If using the saturated salt barrier filter method ( as an inserted renewable polyester filter in a "pocket mask", washing at those temperatures is not required..But hospitals ( for the moment ) have more urgent things to do than to swap filters and to wash separately..Better that they treat ( with the saturated salt solution methods ) the disposable masks with the included filters that they have huge stocks of and which are in the pipeline. Edited March 29, 2020 by mikesc Quote "Don't you know that women are the only works of Art" .. ( Don Henley and "some French painter in a field" )
mikesc Posted March 29, 2020 Report Posted March 29, 2020 (edited) I've just heard about the "Battelle sterilisation method"..which consists of using Hydrogen Peroxide vapour under pressure to sterilise used masks so that "they can be reused up to 20 times"..Hydrogen Peroxide does indeed sterilise, I use it in a solution ( hand wash and equipment wash#, in the hand wash it is mixed in along with an 80% alcohol solution and a liquid soap surfactant and chlorhexidine and another combination of disinfectants*, available commercially and cheaply, proven to be 99.5% effective against bacteria and viruses including the corona virus family ) that I have made for my wife's "decontamination procedure" when she arrives home after her "rounds" of her patients.. It ..the Battelle sterilisation method ( Hydrogen Peroxide ) is a well known and very old method of sterilisation ( it is also what was used to "bleach" hair "blonde"..etc ) and is the active ingredient in "oxy action" washing powders and additives..But..it is very destructive to most fibres and threads if used in concentration..and can cause skin problems and lesions unless it is thoroughly rinsed off the items that it is applied to..Hospitals could use ( and already often do ) this simple, and extremely cheap chemical themselves..but they don't use it widely,mainly because of the destructive effects to items treated with it or in contact with it if it lingers. It will on brief contact "burn your skin" to a white colour by killing the skin cells.. It is not a "miracle method"..the reason that disposable masks cannot be reused many times after being treated with it are multi-fold.. Firstly 20 times is wildly optimistic..it is likely to destroy the mask "integrity" ( and hence any "protection"..and remember an N-95 doesn't actually block Covid 19 anyway ) with 5 or 6 re-uses.. Thus it gives a totally false sense of security..the mask is no more effective after treating with Hydrogen Peroxide than it was before being treated.. But it "saves money"..except it doesn't..because the process has to be paid for.. What it does do is provides a "stop gap" measure for the lack of masks..Don't need to worry about not having enough masks, if you can re-use the ones that you have, even if they can only be re-used in reality 5 or 6 times before they begin to break up.. Of course the real issue is that there is no point re-using a mask that is not effective at all against Covid 19 on it's first use ..and that is made no more effective when Hydrogen Peroxide is used to sterilise it..A non effective mask is sterile when it comes out of it's packet..re-sterilising it ( when it still lets through any Covid 19 virus that it is in contact with ) still makes it a "placebo" non effective mask..But it sounds "hi-tech"..and requires "a machine"..and someone will get rich supplying the machines..and so will others..meanwhile people will have been given false hope..and people will continue to die..when the mask treatment solution proven to be 100% effective against corona virus , and which requires no special machines, nothing more complex than saturated salt solution, either included in the filter layer during manufacture, or added to existing stocks of masks by spraying on their surface..is not used widely.. *Didecyldimethylammonium chloride at 1.8% and Benzalkonium chloride at 0.6%..base solution ..which is then further diluted by the addition of 3.5 litres of water at 20°C..( edited to add the further dilution step which I missed earlier )..Yes I know that both compounds have some "problems" and are not recommended in all disinfecting situations, but in these concentrations they are effective at 20°C ( room temp ) , are fast acting..and do work against Corona Viruses..and are easy to come by in concentrated form in almost any drugstore or supermarket in the washing products or detergent aisles..Brand names which contain them vary from country to country..so read the tiny print on the labels..Look them up individually on wikipedia for some of the brand names that contain one or both of them in your country.. Other compounds which work ( and may have better reputations re allergic reactions etc ) can be much harder to get hold of. Chlorhexidine is the active ingredient in many prescription ( and "off prescription" ) mouthwashes ..usually sold / packaged as pre diluted ( ready to use ) as a solution of strength 0.12%..which is fine . #The hand wash contains 80% alcohol***.. The textile and equipment wash contains no alcohol ..This allows for equipment including textiles textile masks etc, to be disinfected at 20°C by soaking for 15 minutes in the solution, or hand or machine washing at 20°C , or simple wiping down carefully in the case of cleaning and disinfecting of smooth non absorbent surfaces such as eye protective goggles or clear masks etc. ***If you make any of this..bear in mind that any wash ( or hand gel commonly called "hydrogel"..Purell ( spelling corrected ) is the name of the most widely known version in the USA ) that contains alcohol, is highly inflammable ) handle it and any alcohol carefully and away from flames and sources of ignition. All kinds of things can cause skin irritation..test any of the above ( or any combination of the above ) by rubbing a small amount on the inside of your wrist..and waiting 30 minutes to see if you have any irritation..irritation may develop later..you use any formula or substance mentioned in this post or any other entirely at at your own risk..There are no guarantees..read the science articles linked to..make up your own mind.. Stay safe..stay home..keep your distance..wash your hands frequently..Act as if you and everyone else is contagious ..protect yourselves..protect others..and if you can..make masks..with a filter pocket..wash the masks and and saturated salt solution treat them daily .. saturated salt solution to treat the filters , dispose of used filters daily.. Destroying the virus requires breaking or disrupting it's outer membrane, this is done by bringing it into contact with various chemicals..including ( but not limited to ) the ones which I have mentioned above..and soap ( strong soap not mild ) , Alcohol at over 70% ( not % like in Whiskey ), bleach in dilute form ( Don't use it "neat", use it well diluted as if you were washing salad from the garden, how much you dilute it depends on what strength it was when you began ), Hydrogen Peroxide etc..and salt ( NaCl, in either crystals or strong solution ) contact with salt makes the virus "explode"..kind of like how salt on a slug works..uses the same principle.. Edited March 30, 2020 by mikesc clarity and additional dilution information Quote "Don't you know that women are the only works of Art" .. ( Don Henley and "some French painter in a field" )
Members Bert51 Posted March 30, 2020 Members Report Posted March 30, 2020 Wow, so much info me head is spinning. Thank you, this is what we need to stay healthy during this outbreak. Thanks, Bert. Quote
mikesc Posted March 30, 2020 Report Posted March 30, 2020 (edited) Additional information currently being linked to by the BBC.. https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-52087619 you may have to scroll to get to the item as the BBC page there is updated continuously..they are actually reporting about an item in the LA Times https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-03-29/coronavirus-choir-outbreak Research https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2004973?query=RP published on March 17 2021 shows proof that Covid 19 can be spread by "aerosol"..note that "aerosol"* in this instance is merely the technical word for "airborne" ( as in when someone sneezes or coughs that the droplets that they release can travel in the air, ( IMO further than the "social distancing" of 1metre recommended in France, or the 2 metres recommended in the UK and the USA ..I used to be able to cough and move a small piece of paper hanging on a thread at 3 to 4 metres distance from me , before my lungs got attacked by H5N1 a few years back, and subsequently pleurisy, I'd say a minimum of 5 metres should be observed for social distancing ) and "hang around".. Which is why everyone should be wearing masks ( treated as in my post above ) so as not to catch covid 19, if someone sneezes or coughs in their vicinity, and / or so as not to spread covid 19, if they are infected ( even asymptomatically ) if they sneeze or cough.. search for .. airspeed of a sneeze or a cough sneeze around 100 miles per hour ( 160kms per hour ) .."droplet" count..over 100 thousand per sneeze..so sneezing fit count ? cough around 50 miles per hour ( 80kms per hour ).."droplet" count ..close to 3 thousand per cough..so coughing fit count ? Read the airspeeds for each..and the number of "droplets" potentially each carrying large numbers of viruses that are expelled by a sneeze or a cough.. Sneezing or coughing into the crook of your elbow is not going keep all of that from flying through the air for further than 1 or 2 metres.. Wear masks, ( treated as per above ) make masks ( treated as per above )..donate masks..( treated as per above )..and show the receivers this page so that they know how to wash and retreat the washable ones. *Aerosol does not mean it is definitely all a plot and that someone has been spraying it around from a can. Edited March 30, 2020 by mikesc Quote "Don't you know that women are the only works of Art" .. ( Don Henley and "some French painter in a field" )
Members Sheilajeanne Posted March 30, 2020 Members Report Posted March 30, 2020 Thank you for this! I am a retired nurse, and many of my friends are still nursing. Here's what's currently happening in Ontario: https://www.yorkregion.com/opinion-story/9919234--i-didn-t-sign-up-to-die-on-my-job-fear-and-anger-among-ontario-nurses-battling-coronavirus-pandemic/?fbclid=iwar2hb-x4lxiowtyjzndmtqykyf1xqqa2zxdiwdfy_8ag2juphbdvv1jkfqs#.XoIyWzylfhN.facebook I am still not sure if local hospitals are willing to accept masks made by the general public, but it can't hurt to try. As supplies of regular hospital approved masks dwindle, I am fairly certain they will be accepted. Before the days of disposable masks, masks were made of fabric, and sterilized for re-use. Quote
toxo Posted March 30, 2020 Report Posted March 30, 2020 18 hours ago, Bert51 said: Wow, so much info me head is spinning. Thank you, this is what we need to stay healthy during this outbreak. Thanks, Bert. +1 . Mike, what's the point of talking as if we're all bio chemists? If there's a mask pattern that we can make that works, show me the pattern. If there's a bottle of something that I can soak the mask in, show me a bottle label to look for and where to find it. If I need to add this to that then show me two bottles with labels. Quote
CFM chuck123wapati Posted March 30, 2020 CFM Report Posted March 30, 2020 1 hour ago, Sheilajeanne said: Thank you for this! I am a retired nurse, and many of my friends are still nursing. Here's what's currently happening in Ontario: https://www.yorkregion.com/opinion-story/9919234--i-didn-t-sign-up-to-die-on-my-job-fear-and-anger-among-ontario-nurses-battling-coronavirus-pandemic/?fbclid=iwar2hb-x4lxiowtyjzndmtqykyf1xqqa2zxdiwdfy_8ag2juphbdvv1jkfqs#.XoIyWzylfhN.facebook I am still not sure if local hospitals are willing to accept masks made by the general public, but it can't hurt to try. As supplies of regular hospital approved masks dwindle, I am fairly certain they will be accepted. Before the days of disposable masks, masks were made of fabric, and sterilized for re-use. They can still be of use to the populace leaving the others for the medics. 45 minutes ago, toxo said: +1 . Mike, what's the point of talking as if we're all bio chemists? If there's a mask pattern that we can make that works, show me the pattern. If there's a bottle of something that I can soak the mask in, show me a bottle label to look for and where to find it. If I need to add this to that then show me two bottles with labels. I agree I will at least make some and offer them to those who would want them with instructions for cleaning in laymans terms. Quote Worked in a prison for 30 years if I aint shiny every time I comment its no big deal, I just don't wave pompoms. “I won’t be wronged, I won’t be insulted, and I won’t be laid a hand on. I don’t do these things to other people, and I require the same from them.” THE DUKE!
Members Bert51 Posted March 30, 2020 Members Report Posted March 30, 2020 Maybe mikesc thought he would be criticized for not being specific enough, by some? Bert. Quote
mikesc Posted March 30, 2020 Report Posted March 30, 2020 43 minutes ago, toxo said: 18 hours ago, Bert51 said: Wow, so much info me head is spinning. Thank you, this is what we need to stay healthy during this outbreak. Thanks, Bert. +1 . Mike, what's the point of talking as if we're all bio chemists? If there's a mask pattern that we can make that works, show me the pattern. If there's a bottle of something that I can soak the mask in, show me a bottle label to look for and where to find it. If I need to add this to that then show me two bottles with labels. toxo.. It ( the pattern ) was linked to in my first post in this thread..a tiny effort on your part and you'd have found it. If you were all bio chemists what I have posted, would have been posted, in far more complex language / terminology..I have simplified it ( the overall subject ) as much as I can into "layman's terms" and, as a result, of that , and the fact that I'm posting whilst making masks, dealing with the fact that my wife who is in daily contact with covid 19 patients knowing that she might die due to this contact, and is coming home knowing that she might infect us and that I or our son might die from that infection..Means that I'm aware of many errors introduced into my posts due to this stress and lack of time ( such as describing N-95 type, the type known here as FFP2 masks, in terms used for surgical masks, the folded paper type* )..But the words were short enough, simple enough, unless you wanted all the thinking to be done for you..apparently you did...or you thought that I should magically determine each readers level of vocabulary and write to each person personally...especially you.. ( my Mum, no longer alive..would have said to you.."Oi..what did your last slave die of sunshine ?" ) I'm also aware that because I've been reading about this in at least 3 languages , even before the Covid 19 crisis hit in China..and I am living in a country , France where all descriptions are written "reversed" in comparison with English, and all chemical names and formula are also likewise "reversed ", and all descriptions of equipment and masks and medical procedures bears no relation at all to the same descriptions in English ..and as I already said in a previous post ..brand names ( the names on the bottles in your country, which I left 30 years ago) , that you want me to research for you , to save you looking at the backs of the bottles for the chemicals they have in them..are not the same brands, not the same bottles, how the hell would I know what the bottles that you have available are called..I can't..I don't.. So you'll have to do that bit for yourself. Also I'm aware ( acutely aware in fact ) that I may be, or may have been ( due to tiredness and stress etc ), making translation errors, procedural errors or even factual errors..and so I keep coming back to my posts and editing and re-editing them when I think I have not been clear enough or simple enough or correcting such mistakes as I become aware of..I'm trying as hard as I can via all the channels that I can to alert our health authorities here to the fact that the masks that they have and that they have distributed and have ordered and are manufacturing and are distributing to my wife and her colleagues are leaving them ( and their families ) all vulnerable to infection..I'm doing this knowing that If I get it..I'm ( due to pre existing medical conditions which I have mentioned, ) à due for a pine box..with all the disruption and emotional trauma that would bring to my family..plus I'd like to keep living a bit longer. And you are whining that it isn't in simple enough words for you.. Others have contacted me privately to say thanks for making the effort and taking the time to post..and to make masks..I didn't post to get praise, they know this ..But I thank them all the same..They know who they are..Thanks too Bert and Arven and sheilajeanne..Please forgive the errors..I was doing my best, in very difficult circumstances..You toxo are the first to bitch ( publicly or privately ) that it is too complex for you..and that I should make it all in simpler language...this despite the fact that I personally helped you with a design of your dog and advice about your laser, both of which took my time..and time is all any of us have ( not the first time that I've posted that "truism" here ).. I've never posted here to show off my work..My very first post was to ask for help..and Eric so very kindly helped me privately with a link to the engineers manual for my Juki..I have enjoyed reading so many posts by so many people here..I have always tried to help when I could , as you personally know. But..you think that my help is too complicated..even when I'm posting trying to help save lives, yours and others.. Well sunshine..You have shown me the error of my ways.. Time is all I have..it is all any of us have..and you have shown me that I have been wasting it posting publicly.. I may not have as much time left as I thought..certainly not to waste it on you..again.. So..this will be the last post from me here on this site on this or any other subject. The rest of you..stay safe : ) ..make masks..treat them.. Quote "Don't you know that women are the only works of Art" .. ( Don Henley and "some French painter in a field" )
Contributing Member Ferg Posted March 31, 2020 Contributing Member Report Posted March 31, 2020 mikesc Please don't leave the site because of one idiot This happens too many times I am sure Keep a stiff upper lip. I happen to enjoy your posts, even when they point towards me. lol Ferg Quote
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