Are we going to be sued?

[LiftPig]

I was reading another leather forum and someone posted something to the effect of "unless you have years of experience and hundreds of builds under your belt, you have no business selling your holsters because if one fails in a gun fight you'll be sued".

 

Seems a little dramatic to me.  I haven't been making holsters for very long but I've been around guns all of my 40 years and been carrying concealed every day for 20.  I know guns and I know holsters, furthermore, I suspect that people who make holsters know guns and holsters.  I would carry my edc any day in one of my holsters (in fact I do) and feel 100% confident that if I had to draw, my weapon would come out crisp, magazine still in place, and ready to use.

 

Anyone else feel like chiming in on this?

[dikman]

A pretty absurd thing to say (probably by someone who has an overly inflated opinion of themselves) and also a contradictory statement. You can't get the experience unless you make, and sell, the holsters, but if you don't sell them then how are you going to be able to keep making them to get that experience? No-one can make "hundreds" of holsters before deciding to sell them.

I'm with you, LiftPig. Once you understand the basics of holster making, whether pancake-style or western, it's not that difficult to make them properly.

[fredk]

Even if you have a million quad zillion holsters made there will always be someone who will try to blame you and your holster on their failing. People do not want to accept their own failing and always want to blame others and in doing so go to law and sue. But its rare, very rare. If you read it in a newspaper, its because its rare.

Here in the UK, for a small amount, like a few ££ we can buy 'product liability insurance' which gives cover up to £5 mill. No, I've not bought the insurance cos I'm not worried about any claim.

I did have an incident which reflects on this.

I used to make battle-ready medieval type shields. One day I got a letter from a lawyer type going to sue me cos a guige strap on a shield had broken and his client had got hurt. Through a friend I got a video of the incident. A. the client was not someone I'd sold the shield to b. he was through it around holding by the guige. c. I got a piece of the guige strap which had broken. Answer to lawyer; a. client was not my customer, guarantee of goods not transferable,  b. his client was using the shield in a manner it was not designed for, ie the guige is only for carrying the shield. c. the bit of strap was PVC not leather, the client had replaced the leather strap with a bit of old handbag strap. Never heard another word about it but I heard that that 'client' was banned from numerous societies for trying to make stupid claims.

Edited May 23, 2020 by fredk

[Bert51]

If anything made of leather is "looked after" in a good manner it should last a life time, but if it is allowed to be knocked around, left in the sun and weather, then there is no way you could be held responsible for and damage to it.

I have an old WW1 Leather box (first aid I think) and the only thing wrong is the stitching has let go and it is very dry and I do not think it has ever been looked after, I had to remove the wasp nest out to look at it.

Do I have the right to blame the maker for using no rot and non UV thread?

I don't think so.

Bert.

[LiftPig]

Thanks for the replies.  I enjoy this forum because it seems to be more level headed.  I agree with dikman, my first thought was "this guy thinks he's the only one qualified to make a leather holster". But it gave me something interesting to contemplate today and I'll admit it got me a touch discouraged the more I mulled it around.  So I brought it to people who extricate their head from their butts before speaking.  Thank you.

 

Be well, all.

[tsunkasapa]

6 hours ago, fredk said:

Even if you have a million quad zillion holsters made there will always be someone who will try to blame you and your holster on their failing. People do not want to accept their own failing and always want to blame others and in doing so go to law and sue. But its rare, very rare. If you read it in a newspaper, its because its rare.

Here in the UK, for a small amount, like a few ££ we can buy 'product liability insurance' which gives cover up to £5 mill. No, I've not bought the insurance cos I'm not worried about any claim.

I did have an incident which reflects on this.

I used to make battle-ready medieval type shields. One day I got a letter from a lawyer type going to sue me cos a guige strap on a shield had broken and his client had got hurt. Through a friend I got a video of the incident. A. the client was not someone I'd sold the shield to b. he was through it around holding by the guige. c. I got a piece of the guige strap which had broken. Answer to lawyer; a. client was not my customer, guarantee of goods not transferable,  b. his client was using the shield in a manner it was not designed for, ie the guige is only for carrying the shield. c. the bit of strap was PVC not leather, the client had replaced the leather strap with a bit of old handbag strap. Never heard another word about it but I heard that that 'client' was banned from numerous societies for trying to make stupid claims.

I have always warranted any of my goods for life, with the exception of belts and wallets. Those two items take too much abuse, and are only warranted for two years. My warrantee is to repair or replace, at MY option, THEY ship to me, I ship back. That is as fair as it comes. 

[fredk]

I guarantee all my work for life too but in the UK the law is that guarantee is only applicable to the first buyer

[chuck123wapati]

16 hours ago, LiftPig said:

I was reading another leather forum and someone posted something to the effect of "unless you have years of experience and hundreds of builds under your belt, you have no business selling your holsters because if one fails in a gun fight you'll be sued".

 

Seems a little dramatic to me.  I haven't been making holsters for very long but I've been around guns all of my 40 years and been carrying concealed every day for 20.  I know guns and I know holsters, furthermore, I suspect that people who make holsters know guns and holsters.  I would carry my edc any day in one of my holsters (in fact I do) and feel 100% confident that if I had to draw, my weapon would come out crisp, magazine still in place, and ready to use.

 

Anyone else feel like chiming in on this?

Its been quite a few years ago but here in Wyoming a highway patrolman was shot on duty and he sued the holster company and won the case, I think it was Bianchi. If I remember right his contention was the snap was to tight and he couldn't get his weapon out. It is a credible concern, IMO, especially with holsters designed and sold specifically for self defensive purposes. That doesn't mean i'll quit making holsters but I don't make them specifically for self defense. You can be sued for just about anything you make, heck someone could wreck a motorcycle and blame the guy who made the leather seat it still has to be proven however.

Edited May 24, 2020 by chuck123wapati
more info

[Lobo]

Here in the United States anyone can sue anyone else for any stated claim. No proof is required to file the lawsuit and there are plenty of lawyers willing to take on any case for a contingency fee (a percentage of any settlement). When you are the defendant in a lawsuit you must respond within the allowed time period and defend against the action or face summary judgement by default. There lies the very real danger, which is the expense of defending against the lawsuit, and that could easily reach into the tens of thousands of dollars before any hearing or trial occurs or any evidence is presented in court.

A good business insurance policy can provide a manufacturer with significant protections against claims pertaining to product liability or completed operations. I carried such a policy for many years and the premiums were a few hundred dollars per year. In the event of a lawsuit I knew that I could expect the insurance company to assign an attorney to take over the response. The insurance premium was very cheap compared to having to prepare and file a response, much less prepare for trial in court.

My most recent experience with attorneys involved a death in the family with no will left behind. The attorney charged $350 per hour and required a $3500 retainer to begin work on the case. Over the following 12 months I spent $15,000 in legal fees and court costs while dealing with a fairly uncomplicated matter of an older single man with a home and a few assets (totaling less than $100.000), and no one was contesting the action at the courthouse.

If you are engaged in a business (holsters or otherwise) I strongly recommend:

1. Establish a business entity for conducting the business. This can be a simple LLC (limited liability company) or a subchapter S corporation (very easy to do, very little expense, and tax filings are very simple to do)

2. Establish a business bank account to receive every dollar that comes in and pay every bill that relates to the business. Do not co-mingle personal finances with business finances in any way. Keep everything at arms length from your personal assets

3. Consult a good insurance agent and get a business insurance policy that includes liability coverage (premises liability, completed operations, product liability, etc). Even if you work in your home you will have no business coverage at all under your homeowners insurance policy (specifically excluded in most policies).

4. A modest consultancy fee for an hour of a lawyer's time now may save you everything you own, and maybe everything you ever acquire, in the event of a problem in the future.

43 years in the holster business (32 part-time, 11 full-time) and I was never the target of a lawsuit because of that business. But I carried the insurance anyway and always slept better because of it. My business operated as a limited liability company, all the tools and equipment were owned by a Subchapter S corporation, and the business checking account and credit cards handled all the money and the bills. My home, my personal accounts, my pension plans, and my investments were always kept completely separate.

I hope all the rest of you folks never need to worry about these things, but I know there is an idiot born every minute and a lawyer ready to take his case any day of the week. If you don't have your business affairs in order and properly managed you are risking everything on every sale.

 

[fredk]

All of us have very different regulations and systems in our home countries, but many are quite similar in principle

In the UK one can set up as a 'Limited Company quite easily'. It costs as little as £100. A one-off payment. Within that the named 'directors' of which there must be a minimum of 2 have a personal liability 'limited' to £1 each. I used to see that as 'insurance'

When I had several business I had them all as 'limited companies'. One of my business was producing and selling a motoring magazine. One time I got a 'claim' from a reader that he'd cut his finger on one of the pages. He was trying to sue. I handed the case to my company solicitor (lawyer) who sent him his £1 with an advice letter and that was the end of the matter

In the UK a claim type case goes before a judge first who listens to the basic arguments then decides if it should go further or if its a 'frivolous' case and should end there. A lot, or a fair amount, of cases get no further. eg, a recent case, a woman tried suing a top-line hairdresser for cutting her hair badly,  judge decided it was 'frivolous', especially as by the time it would be heard the woman's hair had grown. If a case is to go ahead the respondent (ie you) can ask the court to order the claimer to put up court fees in cash in advance in case they loose. Not many can lodge £20,000 +  cash for an indefinite period with the courts. Again, I have experience of this but it was I was being sued for alleged libel. The court demanded the claimer put up £35,000 in cash to proceed. End of matter.

[TexasJack]

Our litigious society has people so scared that it's a wonder that anyone gets out of bed in the morning.  You see the same kind of thing on gun forums: "If you shoot a robber with a reload, you'll go to prison forever!  - or - you'll be sued by the robber - or - both bad things will happen and then Armageddon!"

If you have ANY kind of business, you have to be careful and make sure things are structured and insured.  It never hurts to be prepared.

On the other hand, how many holsters "fail".  You'd pretty much have to design one that dropped the gun or snagged the trigger or something stupid in order for that to happen.

 

[Lobo]

On ‎5‎/‎28‎/‎2020 at 11:26 PM, TexasJack said:

Our litigious society has people so scared that it's a wonder that anyone gets out of bed in the morning.  You see the same kind of thing on gun forums: "If you shoot a robber with a reload, you'll go to prison forever!  - or - you'll be sued by the robber - or - both bad things will happen and then Armageddon!"

If you have ANY kind of business, you have to be careful and make sure things are structured and insured.  It never hurts to be prepared.

On the other hand, how many holsters "fail".  You'd pretty much have to design one that dropped the gun or snagged the trigger or something stupid in order for that to happen.

 

I will take issue with this to some degree.

Like everything else in life firearms and holsters have evolved quite a lot over the past 30 years or so. Today just about every public shooting range, and many privately owned ranges, require holsters that fully contain the trigger guard area; this is something that was very seldom seen back in the 1970's and 1980's. The difference has come about because of the widespread acceptance of striker-fired semi-auto pistols (many with no manual safety devices, like the Glocks), and leaving the trigger exposed is an invitation to an unintentional discharge. As a retired police chief I have read dozens of reputable studies reporting that unintentional and accidental discharges of police handguns has been a growing problem since the transition away from double-action revolvers (30-plus years ago now).

Back in my puppy policeman days we carried double-action revolvers, typically Colt or Smith & Wesson, each having passive safety devices built-in that require the trigger be completely pulled to the rear and held throughout the hammer fall, and double-action firing required about 20 pounds of continuous pressure applied to the trigger. We carried those revolvers in holsters with the trigger and trigger guard areas completely exposed with no problems whatsoever.

Today's striker-fired semi-autos may, or may not, feature a spring-loaded tab on the trigger that must be actuated by the trigger finger during the trigger pull. Trigger pull weight is typically 4 to 6 pounds (unless modified, and modification kits are widespread, allowing significantly lighter trigger pull weights). Holsters now almost universally feature full coverage of the trigger guard area as a means of preventing unintentional discharge caused by impact, interference of clothing, pressures applied by car seats, and other causes. Law enforcement officers are usually trained and drilled on safely drawing and holstering the handgun to avoid conflicts and accidents.

That doesn't mean that accidents do not happen. Training, even when done properly and repeatedly, can easily be overcome by adrenaline-fueled incidents, or simply stupid acts done with little or no thought of consequences. A holster may have an approved fully covered trigger guard, but when the handgun user attempts to holster the pistol with his finger inside the trigger guard there can be some ugly results.

Not everyone who purchases or owns a handgun is a trained law enforcement officer. Many people acquire handguns without any training in safe handling or operation, or (perhaps worse) had some level of training years earlier and assume that they know everything necessary without regard to weapon type, holster type, or other factors in play. Even if you, as a holster maker, sell your products only to full trained and experienced users there is nothing to prevent those products from passing through other hands and used by less qualified people.

There are also holsters that remain in use way beyond the point in time that they have become so worn or damaged that they should be retired or trashed.

The one thing that will always be a factor in every incident is that when an accident or injury occurs the user will be looking to blame anyone but himself, and the user can easily retain an attorney to seek damages from the holster maker based on a theory of faulty design or poor manufacturing practices.

I will restate my earlier advisements to spend a few bucks now for competent legal advice, purchase a comprehensive business liability insurance policy, and always keep all of your personal assets (home, bank accounts, retirement funds, etc) completely separate from the business operation to shield yourself from today's litigious idiots and their cut-throat lawyers.