Messed up my machine (juki 441 clone), advice appreciated.

[Ysalex]

So, new to the forum but been lurking for a long time. 

I recently purchased a second hand juju 441 clone, it’s an artisan toro 3200.

After working with it for awhile I noticed it had some timing issues, mainly in reverse, so I started to follow the cowboy 4500 timing adjustment video.

To adjust the “needle to timing position“ I accessed three screws through the upper-rear inspection cover. The first two major screws were tough but came loose. There is a third smaller screw that requires a smaller Allen wrench, it’s listed in the manual on page 12 as figure 6: http://www.artisansew.com/pdf/manuals/TORO_30_32_40_BT_manual.pdf

 

that screw was crazy tight, and my Allen wrench tip broke off deep inside. I could no longer turn it by wrench.

after trying everything I could think of, I made the decision to cut a channel in the screw, then use a flathead inserted into the new channel to turn the screw, and just get a replacement.

unfortunately the screw was tighter than the pressure applied, and both sides of the channel sheared off the screw, leaving the screw flush with the housing.

I cannot get it out now. There isn’t enough head even if I had a welder to weld something to it. 
 

so what are my options from here? Anyone know how difficult it is to remove the shaft that runs horizontally from the hand wheel to the front of the machine? Is it even possible and are they available to purchase?

Anyways, glad to be a part of the forums finally, albeit wish it weren’t for this reason. Thanks to anyone who can offer advice. 

 

[Ysalex]

Tried some t b weld yesterday trying to cold weld a piece of metal to the screw, but it sheared off almost instantly trying to turn it today, so I’m at a loss as to what to do with the machine. Might just be junk at this point, any ideas? 

[Old Coach Saddlery]

Would an easy out screw extractor work, or is it to small?

i have never had a screw that tight. Are you sure it isn’t a reverse thread?

Edited August 2, 2020 by Old Coach Saddlery

[Ysalex]

Not sure why it would be reverse, it’s perpendicular to the prop shaft. If anyone has experience with it though I’d be all ears 

The guy in this video turns it left:

 

[RockyAussie]

How bad is this timing issue?

I presume you are getting some missed stitching happening when you go into reverse?

Or are you getting the needle not going back into the same holes?

 

[Ysalex]

Missed stitches in reverse. The first 2-4 are usually okay but then it starts dropping them. When doing the step for adjusting shuttle/hook timing though I can see that it’s quite a bit off 

[RockyAussie]

14 minutes ago, Ysalex said:

Missed stitches in reverse. The first 2-4 are usually okay but then it starts dropping them. When doing the step for adjusting shuttle/hook timing though I can see that it’s quite a bit off 

That is a shame. I will have to think more about the problem then. I same as you have no idea how to get that screw out without major surgery of some sort. Drilling it out would seem to be the only solution. In the hardware store last week I picked up a set of 3 screw extractors that are like a drill bit that cut in reverse that were fairly cheap but I have not had a chance to try them yet.($6.00 au ...I couldn't resist) A reverse drill bit a little smaller than the thread would be best I think.

[RockyAussie]

Here are a couple of pics of the screw extractors I got last weekend. Big for this job I think but a specialist bolt and nut place should have something along this line that would do the job.

[Handstitched]

This is a silly question,  but you do have the correct needle & thread ? 

If that happened on my machine, 441 clone, I'd be sweating by now ...and a little nervous. 

HS 

[dikman]

The screw is obviously loctited in. Only thing I can think of is to drill a hole in the screw, apply localised heat to the screw using a small pinpoint flame then use a small easyout (or perhaps try gently tapping a small flat blade screwdriver into the hole you drilled?).

[480volt]

If you can get the shaft out, some machine shops can use a process called EDM to disintegrate the broken Allen wrench and bolt. I don’t know the lower limit on bolt size that this can be done on, and the cost may be more than the part is worth. I’ve had it done a couple times over the years, typically because I broke off an easy out, and there was no alternative. Can’t hurt to get a quote. 

[Ysalex]

Thanks guys!

 

i bought a couple types of extractors unfortunately none of them can get purchase, so all my efforts have come to moot.

 

and while the idea of removing the shaft has crossed my mind, it’s impractical. With the part that is stuck in place, I cannot remove the shaft either direction even if I managed to completely disassemble it. I’d have to cut the shaft off on both sides of the stuck part in order to remove it through the upper rear window, and I don’t have that inclination, time, or mechanical fortitude. 

 

out of curiosity, what do you guys think a machine in this condition is worth? I’m considering washing my hands and buying a new machine. 

 

Edited August 3, 2020 by Ysalex
Adding info

[chrisash]

Would it not be cheaper to return it to a local main dealer to repair or machine mechanic depending whats available in your country, after all a stuck butchered screw in not a uncommon item for sewing mechanics

Every trained mechanic in a decent garage will be expert in removing broken studs from car engines

[Constabulary]

Looks like a set screw. I guess it is hardened. If I were you, I´d try to drill it out entirely with a carbide drill bit and cut a wider thread. Or try a diamond tip tile drill. But that's probably not everyone's cup of tea 

EDIT:

just to give you an idea what a tile drill (or hole saw) can do:

 

Edited August 3, 2020 by Constabulary

[RockyAussie]

11 hours ago, Ysalex said:

When doing the step for adjusting shuttle/hook timing though I can see that it’s quite a bit off

Been thinking .......If the screw is so bloody tight are you absolutely sure that the timing has shifted there and not that the needle bar has been knocked upward????

[CowboyBob]

This is NOT where you time these machines!That adjusts when the hook starts it foward motion in relation to the needle. Look behind the round front plate on the lower rightside,you turn the machine so the needlebar is about an inch into the material & you'll see a 6mm allen in there.THIS is the timing adjustment for the hook.Lower the needlebar down all the way & turn machine handwheel towards you until it rises 5.5mm the the point of the shuttle should be @ the needle & approx a good 1/8" above the top of the eye of the needle.Like Rockyaussie mentioned check to see if the bar got pushed up first b4 you start adjusting the hook! Look @ screw #2 in the attached file.This is the one that is attached to the hook driver & the only way to adjust the timing.So re-tighten your other screws ,your machine should be OK & just use this method for re-timing.

CB441 manual pg8.pdf

Edited August 3, 2020 by CowboyBob

[Handstitched]

21 minutes ago, CowboyBob said:

This is NOT where you time these machines!

O'h dear !!!!!!!!!  Does that mean  all that effort was for nothing?  And he's destroyed the hex screw and tool  for nothing as well ?  Bugger !!! 

HS

[Ysalex]

8 hours ago, CowboyBob said:

This is NOT where you time these machines!That adjusts when the hook starts it foward motion in relation to the needle. Look behind the round front plate on the lower rightside,you turn the machine so the needlebar is about an inch into the material & you'll see a 6mm allen in there.THIS is the timing adjustment for the hook.Lower the needlebar down all the way & turn machine handwheel towards you until it rises 5.5mm the the point of the shuttle should be @ the needle & approx a good 1/8" above the top of the eye of the needle.Like Rockyaussie mentioned check to see if the bar got pushed up first b4 you start adjusting the hook! Look @ screw #2 in the attached file.This is the one that is attached to the hook driver & the only way to adjust the timing.So re-tighten your other screws ,your machine should be OK & just use this method for re-timing.

CB441 manual pg8.pdf

So wait, you’re telling me that the timing/tuning video is incorrect? 
 

I see the diagram at the bottom of your page showing the exact spot I’m adjusting.
 

Shoot...

[Ysalex]

11 hours ago, CowboyBob said:

This is NOT where you time these machines!That adjusts when the hook starts it foward motion in relation to the needle. Look behind the round front plate on the lower rightside,you turn the machine so the needlebar is about an inch into the material & you'll see a 6mm allen in there.THIS is the timing adjustment for the hook.Lower the needlebar down all the way & turn machine handwheel towards you until it rises 5.5mm the the point of the shuttle should be @ the needle & approx a good 1/8" above the top of the eye of the needle.Like Rockyaussie mentioned check to see if the bar got pushed up first b4 you start adjusting the hook! Look @ screw #2 in the attached file.This is the one that is attached to the hook driver & the only way to adjust the timing.So re-tighten your other screws ,your machine should be OK & just use this method for re-timing.

CB441 manual pg8.pdf

So just to double check with you, I did the adjustment you are talking about first, following along with the video. The instruction was to set the handwheel to a particular degree, then adjust the position of the hook so that it is only just peeking out. Then, per the video, I am adjusting that #2 screw. That #2 screw is the screw that broke off.

I feel like im missing something from your post, but I dont know enough about the machine to know what. I was just trying to follow the timing adjustment video when this happened. 

Edited August 3, 2020 by Ysalex
more info

[RockyAussie]

Have you checked how the machine operates after you did the steps in Uwe's video of setting the needle height and adjusting the needle to shuttle relationship up to 4.2 minutes in on the video? This is shown in the manual you linked to on page 11 step 14. The same step Bob has shown. If you have this correct then you should not be getting any missed stitching at this stage. The rest of the steps can be difficult to get right and may not be necessary to do anyway. I have done this whole process following Uwe's video and it can help but as I said generally you should not need to go beyond any steps shown up to getting the timing position of needle to shuttle relationship.

[Ysalex]

I have. After I originally did the timing just up through the hook timing step (stopping before this new step). After preforming this step, for reasons I will explain below, my hook timing was well off, and I wasn't getting any stitches. At this point I figured I would time it by eye, by threading the machine and watching the loop form and timing the hook myself. After I I did this my stitches were fine in forward, good tension as well, stitch in the middle of the leather, but I was getting dropped stitched in reverse. I Took a look while it was sewing and the hook timing was definitely off going in reverse.

I didn't, and still dont, understand the timing video, which is why I was going over it again.

You'll notice in the video, during the step that cowboybob was talking about for the hook timing, that he unscrews a bolt in the lower front window, locks the wheel with an eraser, then positions the hook. But then, because of where the bolt is in relation to the wheel, in order to re-tighten the bolt he has to move the wheel to make the bolt accessible. He takes out the eraser,  turns the wheel so that he has access to the bolt again. Doing this would ruin the relation he showed for where the hook should be vs. the angle he set the wheel too. He doesn't show how or why repositioning the bolt by turning the wheel works, since off camera away from view it's not turning the hook with it, so to me it seems like at this step either I am missing something, or he is totally getting the hook out of sync with where he orginally placed it on the wheel angle.

Anyways, thats why I was trying to follow the process all the way through, to hope to understand the timing better. Because I know this: If I position the hook the way its done in the video, my hook timing is well off. 

Edited August 3, 2020 by Ysalex
more info

[nylonRigging]

20 hours ago, Ysalex said:

Thanks guys!

 

i bought a couple types of extractors unfortunately none of them can get purchase, so all my efforts have come to moot.

 

and while the idea of removing the shaft has crossed my mind, it’s impractical. With the part that is stuck in place, I cannot remove the shaft either direction even if I managed to completely disassemble it. I’d have to cut the shaft off on both sides of the stuck part in order to remove it through the upper rear window, and I don’t have that inclination, time, or mechanical fortitude. 

 

out of curiosity, what do you guys think a machine in this condition is worth? I’m considering washing my hands and buying a new machine. 

 

You live over in Bend OR. , Don't know any sew Tech. there, but there is hand's-on Tech./repair in Salem, Portland, and across Br. in Vancouver . In the end it might have been the better choice for perfect timing job .

You can still take it to qualified people for a repair on the broken set-screw, and get it set-up/timed properly to the the requirements you want the machine to work at .

It 150+ miles from Bend to Salem and a Tech. there can drill that set-screw out, dissemble that part and re-Tap for using a little larger size set-screw . It a lot of driving for you, but you will end-up with the job being done correct.

.

.

Edited August 4, 2020 by nylonRigging

[Ysalex]

Update: i put the machine back together and I gave cowboybobs Timing method a try instead of the video. I am curious about one thing. My shuttle/hook has a bit of back/forth play, maybe 1-1.5mm. When I align the hook to the needle when the needle is at a 5.5mm rise, so I align it to the backward (counterclockwise) play, or the forward (clockwise) play? If the shuttle/hook should have no play, is there a screw somewhere I can tighten to stop it?
 

Either way, the timing is better. Its bulletproof in forward for sure. 
 

In reverse I still get missed stitches, although now sometimes I can string together 20-30 reverse stitches before a missed stitch. One missed stitch means they all miss after that point. Sometimes it’s only 3-4 reverse stitches before I start skipping, but it’s a definite improvement.

 

on the skipped reverse stitches, I have stopped the machine, opened the front cylinder arm cover, and taken a look at what’s happening.

 

The best I can tell, the thread develops a twist, sort of a counter twist. Like if you held a piece of thread between your thumb and index finger in both hands and twisted the thread in opposite directions until the thread opened up into its three different strands. When this happens the loop forming, the loop that the hook will grab, twists away from the path of the hook. the hook misses, and then I start to miss stitches. Sometimes it will catch 1 or 2 of the strands, which causes the thread to separate and rip on the bobbin shuttle.
 

I know nothing about these machines, but I have three theories that are all probably wrong:

1: Tension.

I have tried a lot of thread tension settings. Right now, using 207 nylon bonded thread, the thread is just loose enough on the bobbin and the main thread that I can pull the leather away from the machine with a mild pull. I get stitches in the middle, no knots or loops visible or happening on either side. that said, I don’t know how sensitive these machines are to tension. If the tension is bad, maybe it’s causing the thread to unravel on reverse stitches when the loop for the hook is being formed. 

 

2: The hook distance from the needle.

If I am not mistaken, there is an adjustment for how far the hook is from the needle. If my hook was closer, even when the thread twisted, the thread loop might still catch. The distance right now between the hook and needle is really small, but maybe this distance is very finicky.

 

3: The thread.

The thread I have is of an indeterminate age, since I got it with the machine. For sure it’s 1+ year old, but could and probably is a bit older. Does bonded nylon thread have a shelf life? Would old thread be causing that kind of issue?  I have also noticed quite a bit of either wax residue or thread fiber building up on the various loops and eyes along the thread channel, I’m not sure if this is an indication of anything.

 

 

 

Edited August 4, 2020 by Ysalex
More info

[RockyAussie]

28 minutes ago, Ysalex said:

Update: i put the machine back together and I gave cowboybobs Timing method a try instead of the video. I am curious about one thing. My shuttle/hook has a bit of back/forth play, maybe 1-1.5mm. When I align the hook to the needle when the needle is at a 5.5mm rise, so I align it to the backward (counterclockwise) play, or the forward (clockwise) play? If the shuttle/hook should have no play, is there a screw somewhere I can tighten to stop it?  ( THAT PLAY IS NORMAL AND I WOULD GO FOR THE BACKWARD COUNTER CLOCKWISE PLAY.)
 

Either way, the timing is better. Its bulletproof in forward for sure. 
 

In reverse I still get missed stitches, although now sometimes I can string together 20-30 reverse stitches before a missed stitch. One missed stitch means they all miss after that point. Sometimes it’s only 3-4 reverse stitches before I start skipping, but it’s a definite improvement.

 

on the skipped reverse stitches, I have stopped the machine, opened the front cylinder arm cover, and taken a look at what’s happening.

 

The best I can tell, the thread develops a twist, sort of a counter twist. Like if you held a piece of thread between your thumb and index finger in both hands and twisted the thread in opposite directions until the thread opened up into its three different strands. When this happens the loop forming, the loop that the hook will grab, twists away from the path of the hook. the hook misses, and then I start to miss stitches. Sometimes it will catch 1 or 2 of the strands, which causes the thread to separate and rip on the bobbin shuttle. (THIS COULD BE CAUSED BY QUITE A FEW THINGS SUCH AS THE LEATHER YOU ARE TRYING TO STITCH,THE NEEDLE TYPE, THE SETTING OF THE THREAD TENSION RELEASE SPRING, THE THREAD QUALITY AND PROBABLY SEVERAL OTHER THINGS).... WITH SOFT SPONGY LEATHERS NOT HAVING A LARGE ENOUGH CUTTING TYPE TIP THE THREAD LOOP CAN BE RESTRICTED AND NOT PULL UP, TO FORM THE LOOP AS IS NEEDED FOR THE HOOK TO CATCH IT. TRY A LARGER LEATHER POINT LR NEEDLE. MAKE SURE THAT THE THREAD TENSION RELEASE SPRING DOES START TO RELEASE UNTIL THE NEEDLE IS JUST TOUCHING THE LEATHER. TRY SOME OTHER THREAD. MAKE SURE THE SHUTTLE IS WELL OILED AND HARBOURS NO LINT OR THREADS THAT COULD INTERRUPT THE FREE FLOWING MOVEMENT.)
 

I know nothing about these machines, (ME TOO BUT DON'T TELL ANYONE) but I have three theories that are all probably wrong:

1: Tension.

I have tried a lot of thread tension settings. Right now, using 207 nylon bonded thread, the thread is just loose enough on the bobbin and the main thread that I can pull the leather away from the machine with a mild pull. I get stitches in the middle, no knots or loops visible or happening on either side. that said, I don’t know how sensitive these machines are to tension. If the tension is bad, maybe it’s causing the thread to unravel on reverse stitches when the loop for the hook is being formed. 

 

2: The hook distance from the needle. (YOU CAN GET VARIOUS THICKNESS SPACERS TO GET THE GAP SMALLER BUT KEEP IN MIND WHEN YOU ARE USING BIG NEEDLES AND THREAD IT MAY GET TOO CLOSE AND THEY ARE A PAIN TO GET IN AND OUT BETWEEN JOB . IF YOU REALLY WANT TO TRY IT ANYWAY YOU CAN CAREFULLY CUT ONE OUT OF AN ALUMINIUM COKE CAN AND USE IT. I HAVE. SHUSH. MAKE SURE YOU REMEMBER TO BACK OUT THE 2 SCREWS THAT HOLD THE SHUTTLE IN UNTIL YOU CAN JUST SEE THE SPRINGS.)

If I am not mistaken, there is an adjustment for how far the hook is from the needle. If my hook was closer, even when the thread twisted, the thread loop might still catch. The distance right now between the hook and needle is really small, but maybe this distance is very finicky.

 

3: The thread.

The thread I have is of an indeterminate age, since I got it with the machine. For sure it’s 1+ year old, but could and probably is a bit older. Does bonded nylon thread have a shelf life? Would old thread be causing that kind of issue?  I have also noticed quite a bit of either wax residue or thread fiber building up on the various loops and eyes along the thread channel, I’m not sure if this is an indication of anything. (COULD BE AND i WOULD SEE IF FRESHER THREAD STOPS THAT)

 

 

 

 

[CowboyBob]

7 hours ago, nylonRigging said:

You live over in Bend OR. , Don't know any sew Tech. there, but there is hand's-on Tech./repair in Salem, Portland, and across Br. in Vancouver . In the end it might have been the better choice for perfect timing job .

You can still take it to qualified people for a repair on the broken set-screw, and get it set-up/timed properly to the the requirements you want the machine to work at .

It 150+ miles from Bend to Salem and a Tech. there can drill that set-screw out, dissemble that part and re-Tap for using a little larger size set-screw . It a lot of driving for you, but you will end-up with the job being done correct.

.

.

This screw is still tight on the shaft & this adjustment does not need to be made.If it was my machine I would leave it alone.There is also 2 other larger screws that hold it tight to the shaft so it should never move.

Edited August 4, 2020 by CowboyBob