Moccasins made of vegetable-tanned leather

[ScottEnglish]

Hello again.

I'm ready to make another pair of moccasins. So far I've been using chrome-tanned leather but I'm thinking of trying some vegetable-tanned leather for pair number four. They'll be unlined so I want to use thicker leather to prevent excessive stretching. I'll also be using the same piece of leather for the soling which I want to be reasonably thick. Consequently, I intend buying leather that is 8 to 9 ounce in thickness. I'm hoping I can wet the leather if necessary to make it more pliable during assembly.

What do folk think of this idea?

Scott

[Alaisiagae]

Veg tan is much more rigid than something like deerskin, which is very flexible and soft. Milled veg tan might work, it's fairly flexible.

[chuck123wapati]

8 oz will be pretty stiff for the uppers. Traditional mocs were made of Moose or Bison soles with deer or elk uppers. 

[Matt S]

I have a pair of boots with veg tanned uppers. I wouldn't recommend it, every time they get wet they dry hard. Even just foot sweat would be a problem I reckon.

[ScottEnglish]

Alaisiagae: Thanks for mentioning the milled vegetable-tanned leather. I'd not heard of that before.

chuck123wapati: Thanks for your reply too Chuck. I may be wrong, but I suspect that here in the UK moose, bison, deer, and elk leather is hard to obtain.

Matt S: Do you think Matt that your boots might become more supple with further use? I'm loath to give up on my idea. Thanks.

Thanks again to you all.

Scott

[Aven]

Scott, if you were to use the 8oz veg tan, you would have to pre-mould the bottom piece to get the tucks.  You can't sew them while it's wet, you'll cut through the leather.  If you really want to use veg tan, you might be able to get 3 - 4 oz to work.  Stiff leather boots will eventually get broken in if they are worn enough, but that doesn't always mean they will be comfortable.  I was issued two pairs of boots in basic.  We rotated the pairs, one day wearing one, the next the other.   The first day we wore them our drill sergeant made us get our boots wet and walk them dry.  First pair was like putting on slippers.  The other pair broke in so that the right one was pushing into my achilles tendon every time I flexed my foot.  I hated wearing those boots.  I couldn't wait until I could toss them and buy another pair.

Elk, deer and even bison are all native to Europe.  Have a look around, you might be surprised on what you find.  Water buffalo might be a good substitute for bison

[Matt S]

5 hours ago, ScottEnglish said:

Do you think Matt that your boots might become more supple with further use? I'm loath to give up on my idea. Thanks.

Maybe, but after many attempts at dubbining the snot out of them I've given up and they sit in the boot cupboard gathering dust these days. They're a pretty close copy of the US WW2 para boot and while they fit great (having moulded to my feet) the uppers just go rock hard, especially around the ankles. I've toyed with the idea of cutting them down to ankle height but they'd still be pretty stiff.

I don't know what the solution for this problem was "back in the day", if there was one. I suspect it's a combination of different boot styles, thinner/softer leather, lots of grease/pitch/tar, and boots/shoes with a shorter lifespan. As I'm sure you know native Americans brain tanned their hides (a type of tawing really) rather than veg tanning, which isn't so influenced by water. I'm not aware of any commercial brain tanning in the UK, but I do know that there are several hobbyists who do it if you want to try the stuff.

[chuck123wapati]

Yes as Matt said the native Americans tanned with the brain of the animal  harvested. I mentioned those different hides more so you could get a reference on the thickness of the hides used for each part of the moc. The bottoms were much heavier than the tops. If you've ever seen a pair of Mocs made traditionally they are very soft, thin and comfortable tops with heavy soles, each tribe had their own construction designs as well. the Apache even had a toe guard of rawhide for use in cactus. One thing to understand about older footwear is that they were cherished much more than now and native Americans  as well as other races would take them off and go barefoot before ruining them in mud or water.  Good luck with your project and look forward to some pictures!

[ScottEnglish]

Aven: Thanks for your response. I didn't realize wet leather is susceptible to damage. Makes sense really. I'll do some reading about different types of leather to see if I can find an alternative for my moccasins.

Matt S: Thanks for telling me more about your boots. Very helpful. I don't mind admitting my ignorance: I didn't know about brain-tanned leather. So thanks for that also.

Scott

[ScottEnglish]

Thanks Chuck. The information about the Native American moccasins is useful. I'm grateful. Looks like I'm going back to the drawing board!

Scott

[Aven]

Scott, when I made my turn shoes I used 8 -9 oz bullhide.  The temper was very soft and supple.  It worked a treat, but the soles were covered with a mixture of ground rubber and barge cement.

This should give you more information.  Bison Leather Info

[Frodo]

I use a 5oz for the sole and suede for the upper. you can buy a rabbit pelt if you are making a pair for winter

check springfield they run a nice sale every now and then on the pelts

[ScottEnglish]

Aven: Bullhide. I'll have a look online. Thanks. How durable was the ground rubber and Barge cement soling?

Frodo: Thanks for your reply. Moccasins made of rabbit pelt must be nice in the winter!

Scott

[ScottEnglish]

Aven: Seems water buffalo is indeed a good substitute for bison. Very helpful for me to know that before I buy more leather. Can bison/buffalo leather be moulded? Thank you.

Scott

[toxo]

20 hours ago, Aven said:

Scott, when I made my turn shoes I used 8 -9 oz bullhide.  The temper was very soft and supple.  It worked a treat, but the soles were covered with a mixture of ground rubber and barge cement.

This should give you more information.  Bison Leather Info

Sort of OT but reminded me of a small firm that moved next door to me years ago. They'd come up with the idea of shredding tyres. cleaning and colouring them and with some kind of resin they would float the stuff all around your swimming pool to give a warm, non slip and of course waterproof surface. I remember thinking I wish I'd thought of that.

[Aven]

7 hours ago, ScottEnglish said:

Aven: Bullhide. I'll have a look online. Thanks. How durable was the ground rubber and Barge cement soling?

Frodo: Thanks for your reply. Moccasins made of rabbit pelt must be nice in the winter!

Scott

The soling has held up decently for me.  How it will hold up for you is a matter of several things, such as how you walk, what you walk on, how often you wear them, and of course how you applied the soling.  Applying it can be a bit tricky.  You have to mix up the amount of rubber you think you will need and stir that into just enough Barge to hold it together.  But while you are stirring to coat all the granules well, the glue is flashing off.  You have to get the granules completely coated, but with just enough glue to hold it all together and then smeared onto the sole before it hardens on you.  It can't have too much glue, be too wet or it will just make a mess of things.  If you underestimated what you needed, just do a second layer. 

The soling treatment is more comfortable than walking on a sidewalk barefooted, but it doesn't offer the same cushioning as a pair of runners.  And it isn't overly durable.  If you wore them daily on concrete or asphalt, you will probably have to redo the soling a couple of times a year.  But its easy enough to do, just messy.

 

2 hours ago, toxo said:

Sort of OT but reminded me of a small firm that moved next door to me years ago. They'd come up with the idea of shredding tyres. cleaning and colouring them and with some kind of resin they would float the stuff all around your swimming pool to give a warm, non slip and of course waterproof surface. I remember thinking I wish I'd thought of that.

Not really.  It's the same concept.  The person who taught me how to make the turn shoes would take a five gallon bucket to a place nearby that retreaded tires and ask if he could scoop up some of the grindings.  It was the mess they made from grinding the old tread off, so it was waste, but they weren't always keen to have him in the building. 

The grindings were different sizes and there were always bits of steel in the mix.  From that 5 gallon bucket, after the sifting was done, there might be a gallon bucket or two of finely ground rubber.

[Sheilajeanne]

The red deer, which is very common in Scotland, is a close relative of the North American elk, and I'm sure its hide would be a good substitute.

[Aven]

This video is a good tutorial on how to do it.  It isn't quite what I was taught, but it looks like it will work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzDFbvdIP7E

[ScottEnglish]

Thanks Aven for the information about ground rubber and Barge cement soling. And the link to the video.

Sheilajeanne: I didn't know red deer were related to North American elk. Thank you.

Scott