Molding Exotics

[Brooks125]

What is the secret, if any, to wet molding exotics?  I have done a few with snake skin, frog and now ostrich legs.  I understand most exotics are essentially waterproof, but is there a way to "encourage" moldability to get the deep, incised lines you get with cowhide, or at least closer to it?  Here's an example of my last ostrich leg.  The interior is pretty spot on and it functions great.  It's a nice holster, but I would like more front detail.

[Matt S]

I expect that they are chrome tanned, or with another process which does not respond in the same way as veg tanned hides. Is the ostrich glued to the veg tanned liner throughout?

[RockyAussie]

I only ever mould the veg part first then contact glue the exotic into place after then go on to put the parts together..

[Danne]

Here is a clip where Hermès make their pocket watch strap. Alligator, veg tan?, Zermatt calf (Looks like veg tan between gator and Zermatt at 1:48)

 

[RockyAussie]

58 minutes ago, Danne said:

Here is a clip where Hermès make their pocket watch strap. Alligator, veg tan?, Zermatt calf (Looks like veg tan between gator and Zermatt at 1:48

Yes all of the croc skin and Alligator skins used by Hermes is supposed to be Veg tanned and doing a small intricate job like that you would want to be able to wet mould it. This almost cuts out glazed skin for the job but that can also be done at the expense of not getting as much of the glazed finish back after the job is finished. You can get a very high shine which I tend to like better anyway. I have only ever done a couple of jobs where I have had to resort to wet moulding the croc and although they turned out fine I would rather take the easier way where possible. I don't think I have ever used so much croc on a job as they do there I must add.

[Danne]

1 hour ago, RockyAussie said:

Yes all of the croc skin and Alligator skins used by Hermes is supposed to be Veg tanned and doing a small intricate job like that you would want to be able to wet mould it. This almost cuts out glazed skin for the job but that can also be done at the expense of not getting as much of the glazed finish back after the job is finished. You can get a very high shine which I tend to like better anyway. I have only ever done a couple of jobs where I have had to resort to wet moulding the croc and although they turned out fine I would rather take the easier way where possible. I don't think I have ever used so much croc on a job as they do there I must add.

Where did you read that? According to Aacrack it's chrome tanned. 

https://www.aacrack.co.uk/tanneries/hcp/hcp-niloticus-crocodile.html

[RockyAussie]

Most of the croc skin around is done part chrome tan and part veg. What I said is all of the croc skin used by Hermes is supposed to be veg tanned. I did not read that I was told by someone who should know. I myself don't like the French tanned croc veg so much and way prefer the skins tanned in Singapore (Chek Hong) which are not but if you know something I should know please elaborate.

[Danne]

7 minutes ago, RockyAussie said:

Most of the croc skin around is done part chrome tan and part veg. What I said is all of the croc skin used by Hermes is supposed to be veg tanned. I did not read that I was told by someone who should know. I myself don't like the French tanned croc veg so much and way prefer the skins tanned in Singapore (Chek Hong) which are not but if you know something I should know please elaborate.

I don't say you are wrong. I just said that Aacrack say that it's chrome tanned. They sell Hermès croc skins (HCP = Hermès cuirs precieux)

[Rahere]

Sebring in Florida, working with gator, use chrome tanning. Although they have more prep steps to remove calcium deposits in the hide, at the end of the day it's a standard tan,  so why don't you see veg tan? The answer has to be the thickness. Bird and lizards are much the same, fairly light bones, designed for strength, skins protected by scales, which are lost in the tanning. The finished product is thin, texture but no substance, do they're pretty much treated like a veneer in woodworking: surface finish only.

[Brooks125]

15 hours ago, Matt S said:

I expect that they are chrome tanned, or with another process which does not respond in the same way as veg tanned hides. Is the ostrich glued to the veg tanned liner throughout?

It is.  I basically laminate the exotics to the veg tanned from the original cut outs, and all my holsters are suede lined.  I'm wondering if a longer saturation before molding would be better or worse...or if the loss of detail on the boning is just to be expected.

[Bolt Vanderhuge]

Ostrich leg is easily molded when laminated on veg tan leather. You may not have a thick enough layer of veg tan to hold the molding. You could try a smooth lining with veg tan instead of the suede. This will provide a thicker piece of leather and can hold molding better. 

[chrisash]

There may be a simple answer in that Hermes uses two different methods of tanning depending on the item they are making

[Bolt Vanderhuge]

10 hours ago, Bolt Vanderhuge said:

Ostrich leg is easily molded when laminated on veg tan leather. You may not have a thick enough layer of veg tan to hold the molding. You could try a smooth lining with veg tan instead of the suede. This will provide a thicker piece of leather and can hold molding better. 

Here is a holster with ostrich leg. This has a good amount of detail molding/boning. This should give an idea what is possible with good veg tan under the exotic. I shoot for roughly 1-2 oz thinner veg tan, depending on the exotic thickness, than my non exotic holsters. 

This one look like it might be the same color ostrich leg as yours. 

 

 

[Brooks125]

11 hours ago, Bolt Vanderhuge said:

Ostrich leg is easily molded when laminated on veg tan leather. You may not have a thick enough layer of veg tan to hold the molding. You could try a smooth lining with veg tan instead of the suede. This will provide a thicker piece of leather and can hold molding better. 

I think that's what I'm looking for and I'll give that a shot.  Thanks!

[RockyAussie]

On 8/28/2020 at 4:42 PM, Danne said:

They sell Hermès croc skins

Could you show me where you have seen that? If they claim to be a supplier I am amazed that they would make that claim as any supplier to them has to sign a contract that forbids them in any way disclosing that sort of information. They would be gaining a financial benefit by doing so. 

[Danne]

2 hours ago, RockyAussie said:

Could you show me where you have seen that? If they claim to be a supplier I am amazed that they would make that claim as any supplier to them has to sign a contract that forbids them in any way disclosing that sort of information. They would be gaining a financial benefit by doing so. 

I gave you a link to Aacrack that sell Crocodile skins from HCP (HCP = Hermès Cuirs Précieux)

https://www.aacrack.co.uk/tanneries/hcp/hcp-niloticus-crocodile.html

I don't really understand how you mean, there is no secret what leather and suppliers Hermès use.

A couple of examples: 

Barenia = Haas Novonappa, Degermann Baranil

Zermatt = Haas Zermatt, Degermann Zermatt

Epsom = Haas Derby

Swift = RMG Pomari (Not 100% certain)

Fjord = Perlinger Fjord (Not 100% certain)

 

I'm not saying i'm 100% correct here, I might have missed something you know that I don't know?

[RockyAussie]

I think that we are taking away from the OP's post here somewhat and if you like, we could continue this further in the private message part on LW. Hermes own a lot of different companies and these companies do a lot of other products than what you see the Hermes brand on. What they use from these companies is hard to say for sure but I know awhile back there was a lot of pressure put on getting veg tanning due to a whole bunch of restrictions in Europe regarding chrome tanning. This is not an issue in all countries however. PM me if you want. Regards Brian

[Bolt Vanderhuge]

11 hours ago, Brooks125 said:

I think that's what I'm looking for and I'll give that a shot.  Thanks!

Looking forward to seeing your next revision.

[paloma]

there is no secret just a wooden mould.