Tandy Doodle Pages

[Johanna]

Tandy used to give away Doodle Pages. I have a lot of Doodle Pages, and many are the vintage ones. I see in the email flyers that Tandy is now charging for copies of them. They are also for sale all over eBay. A leather guild once made a cd out of some really old ones a few years ago, and was threatened by Tandy with lawsuits, so the cd project was scrapped. Was Tandy bluffing, hoping to profit from DP sales?

Would anyone be interested in downloading old Doodle Pages if I scanned them?

Is it legal to scan the ones I have and making them available for download? Could I be sued for sharing what Tandy once gave away?

Who owns the Doodle Pages, the authors, or Tandy? Do I need permission from anyone to share something I obtained from Tandy at no charge?

Why is it legal to sell Doodle pages on eBay but not give them away with no expectation of profit?

Am I the only person who thinks it's outrageous that Tandy is trying to make a profit from old Doodle Pages?

I have hard copies of "free" Doodle Pages from the sixties through the nineties. Are there any attorneys in the house?

Johanna

[shirleyz]

Would anyone be interested in downloading old Doodle Pages if I scanned them?

I am interested in absolutely anything that's free!!! I'll download it!

Shirley

[Dale]

I'd be careful about this one, Johanna. I can't speak with authority, but I believe TLF owns the rights to these pages. The owner has rights to make, sell, give, or destroy any number of them they want and in any format they want. While you have the right to sell, give, or destroy any copy of the item you obtained legally, they must give explicit approval for you to make copies in any format. You may give your copy(ies) away if you choose, but you can't reproduce them and sell or give them away. I believe IILG ran into an issue with them a couple years ago. You may want to ask someone there. Again, I don't speak with authority, but this is my understanding of copyright.

Dale

[stelmackr]

Hummmm, I think that Tandy's Doodle pages, as previously mentioned, like all orginal artwork are covered by copyright protection. Rather than trying to copy, buy or replicate those Doodle pages, I would rather see us create new Doodle like pages. Those pages could be like the Open Source software licenses allowing copying, modification as long as the original artist's name and comment are retained. Those Doodle pages were great, but it is time to create a new format. Change the name from "Doodle Pages" to something new (i.e. "e-Pages", "Maker Pages", "Show-and-Tell Pages", or whatever, and create a format and venue to post for electronic distribution. Anyone could use for any purpose--just like the Tandy pages. Get a few real teachers of the art (Peter Main, Chan Geer, Ron Ross, etc.) to make the first few and let others add what they can. Those pages could be used and modified and reposted as a dervative with the original artists license and the modifiers addtional license.

I say, let's create something new. And if you want old Doodle Pages, buy, sell, or trade to get them.

Bob Stelmack

Editor, RawHide Gazette

www.pslac.org

[Billsotx]

Jo, I believe Tandy probably owns the copyright to the Doodle Pages since they

published and distributed them. The probably objected to the CDs being made,

sold and distributed because there was money changing hands. I'm no lawyer, but

I have had some dealings with copyright. If you want to brush up on it get a

copy of Writer's Market from the library. It's covered there in layman's terms

pretty well.When you, I, we write, draw, take a photo of something we

own that copyright. As it rolls off the keyboard it is copyrighted. You can

actually register it and apply for a copyright if you are into spending money.

That is no longer a necessity. It is wise to always place your by-line or

pen-name on your work and it doesn't hurt to place one of those little copyright

symbols on there either. Unless the author sells the copyright to someone it

remains the author's and his heirs for his lifetime plus 50 years (this maybe be

100 years, but I believe it was changed to 50). The author can sell rights to a

publisher. Example: In the 70s I did a lot of freelance writing and I would only

sell "First North American Serial Right; For one time publication." That allows

the author to resell his work to another country or publisher or medium. The

exception - the author is being paid to write, draw, photograph, create, etc. In

which case the copyright belongs to the employer, contractor; if you write or

drawn on company time, it belongs to the boss - don't get caught ... lol. I'm

looking at some TLF D-pages by Moody, Lair, Hoyt, McKay; we know Moody worked

for Tandy so his work is probably copyrighted to Tandy. He probably had a

contract and he or his heirs may get royalties. I'm sure these are all covered

by contract.

Would anyone be interested in downloading old Doodle Pages if I scanned them?

I'm interested! As long as you don't sell them or put them up on the web for free picking I don't think you'll hear from Tandy. Of course, the Doodle Page Police may be working UC on this board, so now we're burnt ... lol

Is it legal to scan the ones I have and making them available for download? Could I be sued for sharing what Tandy once gave away?

The D-pages I have here clear state No reproduction, etc. Tandy has the money and I'm sure the machinery to go after you if you get into circulation. Definitely if you begin to sell them. That's not what you're about. If them deem you are getting into business and making money off their property they sue you, otherwise you "may" received a letter demanding that you cease and desist. If that happens comply.

Who owns the Doodle Pages, the authors, or Tandy? Do I need permission from anyone to share something I obtained from Tandy at no charge?

More that likely Tandy owns them; at least the ones I have here. You have to have permission if you want to be legal.

Why is it legal to sell Doodle pages on eBay but not give them away with no expectation of profit?

Selling D-pages on ebay is like selling books or magazines on ebay. But start to copy, reproduce and especially to distribute and/or circulate and that's a copyright violation. Otherwise you are selling used D-pages, books, magazines, etec. - totally legal, "if" you own them.

Am I the only person who thinks it's outrageous that Tandy is trying to make a profit from old Doodle Pages?

The pages belong to them and it's their property. They can give them away, sell them, destroy them, recycle them into T-paper if they want.

I have hard copies of "free" Doodle Pages from the sixties through the nineties. Are there any attorneys in the house?

If you scan and send through personal, off list, emails you probably will not hear a thing. If you decide to share them and you are told to cease and desist - comply. I don't know if Greg's mother or Greg are getting royalities from his Dad's doodle pages, but maybe he can fill in some of the blanks.

Bottomline - it's illegal. Will Tandy call you own it? Probably if you make a spectical of it. How will they know if you send me and Shirley and scan - unless Shirley is working UC for the D-Page Police - she sure was quick to accept ... lol ... Just kidding Shirley. Now if you make doodle pages of that sexy Bad-to-the-bone Bad-A erotic lady you been puttin' on them chopper seats - I'll buy one! ... lol

[ClayB]

I would tend to agree with those that say "don't try it".

One thing that I would like to add is that at one time, Tandy offered the Stohlman doodle pages in book form. There were three books, each one covering several years worth of the doodle pages the Stohlman's wrote. Since they were sold in book form I am sure that Tandy owns the copyright to those ones.

Clay

[Randy Cornelius]

I have the CD you refer to. I don't see why I could not copy it for free with a shipping and handling charge

[pete]

I have a few REALLY old ones but would LOVE to have as many as I could get. Send them on if you possibly can!!!!!!!

pete

[Johanna]

Randy- don't do it, or you'll end up getting banned from the IILG or sued by Tandy.

Johanna

[Dragons Pearl]

I also would like to get some of those doodle pages. I recently bought a load of leatherworking tools, stamps, dyes, books, patterns and a lot of other stuff. Some of the older pages are really cool. But not if it will get anyone's tail in a bind.

I would be for making our own pages, but I admit that I have no clue as to how to design a pattern lol. When I stamp, its never the same even if I try to match on two pieces. And forget drawing. I am barely able to trace patterns.

[Dan Hammons]

I am two magazines shy of having the first 25 years of the Leather Craftsman and from reading them the Tandy Company then and the one today are not even close to being the same company .They had huge picture carving contests every year with multi divisions and for that era some real nice prizes such as a Al Stolhman carved picture . Craft aids used to come in your Magazine and they would run the flower of the month contest. It appears to me that their goal as a company back then was to get people excited about leather work and keep that intrest alive . If you bought one of thier clock kits or a holster kit from them you got Live Oak Leather wth it . Your free Doodle Page was waiting for you at your favorite store because not only did it get people in their store it also kept their intrest up and they felt like Tandy Leather cared about evey person that walked through the door. These days if someone wants an Ashly Clutch purse and it is a nice purse I tell them that they are really just buying the insides cuz the leather that comes in 80% of them ain't worth putting on a purse that nice. Sad but true and if I want them to come back I have to be honest with them.

These are the oldest or should I say the only Tandy Patterns that I have seen with Dave Tandy copy right

[Mike Craw]

Hey Dan!

You are right about the leather quality. I just posted a purse in "Show Off" that's an Ashley, and I replaced the leather that came in the kit with 4-5 oz. tooling leather. I don't know what has happened, but some of that stuff looks and feels like paper. It must be happening in the tanning process.

Mike

[JustWakinUp]

I'm interested but wouldn't want anyone to get into trouble.

I also think that screaming from the roof tops is a bad idea as

well, sometimes things done in dark alleys aren't a bad idea.

[Rawhide]

MAN!! would I love these. If you find out. Let me know as well.

Marlon

[electrathon]

I say, let's create something new. And if you want old Doodle Pages, buy, sell, or trade to get them.

Bob Stelmack

Editor, RawHide Gazette

www.pslac.org

I have to agree with this. I would like to see an area of the forum that was not for posting comments but was for tutorials. ClayB has done some great ones, and over time they move out of public site. Others here are incredibly tallented too. If there was a section that tutorials were stored, cataloged and were easily downloadable, like in a monthly page format then there would likely be more intrest to write these up. These pages could be free, the information belonging to leatherworker.net for copywrite purposes and we could suggest that if people felt there was helpfull info there then to send in a couple dollars to keep the system running.

Aaron

Go here for all the galleries and tutorials: http://leatherworker.net ~~Johanna

[Cecil]

I would be interested in downloading them. I could even put them in one or more PDF documents and make them available for download online. Folks wouldn't have to download a bunch of individual files. Provided it is legal.

[howardb]

Tandy used to give away Doodle Pages. I have a lot of Doodle Pages, and many are the vintage ones. I see in the email flyers that Tandy is now charging for copies of them. They are also for sale all over eBay. A leather guild once made a cd out of some really old ones a few years ago, and was threatened by Tandy with lawsuits, so the cd project was scrapped. Was Tandy bluffing, hoping to profit from DP sales?

Would anyone be interested in downloading old Doodle Pages if I scanned them?

Is it legal to scan the ones I have and making them available for download? Could I be sued for sharing what Tandy once gave away?

Who owns the Doodle Pages, the authors, or Tandy? Do I need permission from anyone to share something I obtained from Tandy at no charge?

Why is it legal to sell Doodle pages on eBay but not give them away with no expectation of profit?

Am I the only person who thinks it's outrageous that Tandy is trying to make a profit from old Doodle Pages?

I have hard copies of "free" Doodle Pages from the sixties through the nineties. Are there any attorneys in the house?

Johanna

I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on TV... (hahahahaha)

Seriously NOT a shark, but I do have to put up with them sometimes. Copyright law is pretty clear. IF Tandy has copyright on the DP's, then it is indeed agin' the law to copy or distribute (or post) them, even at no fee. You can sell your copy (hence e-bay) completely legally. Now if you are making more copies and selling them, The Man gonna come knockin' and haul your butt away.

[Warning: Opinion to follow!] The SMART thing for Tandy to do would be to scan all of them to PDF's and offer them on CD for sale. Of course an even SMARTER thing for them to do once scanned is allow people to download them individually at N/C. This craft nearly died out and while gaining more support it is STILL "sparsely populated" compared to it's heyday in the 60's & early 70's. Sharing the doodle pages again wouldn't hurt anyone's image.

I LOVE the idea of creating new designs and making them open copyright. That way an author can keep it as his own design, but then it can be freely distributed and shared. As soon as I get that good, I'm willing to pony up designs. I may be freelancing my first project (a holster) and will definitely share if I do.

Regards,

Brent

[Rhonda]

I know this post has not been used in a while, but so you all know. It is not legal for peeps to sell the doodles on ebay.

If you report the seller, there account will be deactivated. I bought a doodle from a guy on ebay, he claimed it was an original. Suprise suprise no Staple holes, usually means it is a illegal copy. About a month later Ebay caught up with him and shut him down.

[whinewine]

I know this post has not been used in a while, but so you all know. It is not legal for peeps to sell the doodles on ebay.

If you report the seller, there account will be deactivated. I bought a doodle from a guy on ebay, he claimed it was an original. Suprise suprise no Staple holes, usually means it is a illegal copy. About a month later Ebay caught up with him and shut him down.

I'm confused : Doodle Pages don't have staple holes (unless someone made them up into a book of sorts). They came on tear-off pads, so I don't I don't know where you're getting the info about staples????

[whinewine]

Also, Doodle Pages did come in loose packs, too, from what I remember from the '60s & '70's, but absolutely none were stapled. (I used to work for Tandy during the mid '70s).

Edited April 8, 2010 by whinewine

[Johanna]

I have no recollection of seeing any staples on Doodle Pages, ever. I know ones that have been rolled, not folded, are considered to be worth more. When I was a Tandy mgr. in the 90s, Doodle pages came on a big pad and we tore the sheets off as needed. When empty, the back (cardboard) was great for pattern templates, too.

Johanna

[WyomingSlick]

Well, yes I have some doodle pages with staple holes in them. They are the small ones that were the center pages in the leather magazines (The Craftsman and The Leather Craftsman). I am somewhat confused about Rhonda's story about it being against eBay policy to allow them to be sold. There are literally millions of items sold on eBay that are copyrighted and were given away initially. Copyrights usually only prohibit the copying of protected material (and that includes electronic media), not the selling of the original. In some cases, the original copyright owner does maintain ownership of the material and may prohibit the transfer of even the original material to any other. This should be stated on the item. I have seen some government publications where this was the case.

As to the idea of Tandy making available a CD collection of past Doodles; yes, that would be great. I suggested that to them years ago; but so far....nothing. As to members copying them and disseminating the material; I suggest that if you do.....you had best do it on the sly....."Big Brother is watching."

[dsh1126]

I know this post has not been used in a while, but so you all know. It is not legal for peeps to sell the doodles on ebay.

If you report the seller, there account will be deactivated. I bought a doodle from a guy on ebay, he claimed it was an original. Suprise suprise no Staple holes, usually means it is a illegal copy. About a month later Ebay caught up with him and shut him down.

I do not have any doodle pages with staple holes ... The ones I always got were padded in packs of 50 with glue on edge of pack ... just like notepads....

Just my 2 cents ...

David

[WyomingSlick]

Here's the other 98 cents on doodle pages.

Doodle Pages first came out in 1949 as a promotional item for Craftool, the company started by Dick McGahan to produce quality tools for the large number of people who were taking up leathercraft as a hobby.

The first Doodle Page (pic 2.) was just as the name implied; a sheet showing several doodles demonstrating techniques for tooling as done by Cliff Ketchum (shown in pic 1 holding a gun on Dick McGahan on the right - promo for The Leather Craftsman magazine). Cliff was the featured artist on the first six Doodle Pages. Following him, many other of the foremost leather craftsmen in the Southern California area displayed their "doodles" and craftsmanship in these pages: Al Stohlman, Ken Griffin, Al Shelton, Joey Smith, Christine Stanley. and the list goes on and on for over 50 years!

The early Doodle Pages were only printed on one side of 17 1/4 " X 11 1/8" page. It wasn't until series 4 (the fourth year) that the pages were printed on both sides. Usually the reverse was promotional material for Craftools, Craftaids, the Leather Craftsman magazine, etc.

Speaking of The Leather Craftsman magazine. The very early issues of The Leather Craftsman had Doodle Pages in them that were not identified by any series or page number (see pic 5). In later years, the centerfold in the magazine was a copy of the currant Doodle Page as shown in the pic 3 of a Doodle page on top of an identical centerfold Doodle Page. These magizine centerfolds would be the Doodle pages that are found with the staple holes in the center. Of course the back of these would have part of magazine articles on them. At least once that I know of, there were two concurrant doodle pages printed back to back as shown in pic 4.

It seems that the early Doodle Pages could be obtained simply by sending the coupon on each page to a Craftool Dealer for the next one. Later on, this coupon would be omitted and it would simply be stated that Doodle Pages were free with any Craftool Purchase. I imagine most dealers were like the one I patronized as a kid; they would give one to whoever wanted one.

Numbering of Doodle Pages was done by starting a new series every year with a new page each month. At the end of series 12 (year 12), they started the next series with 1B. Then came the C series, D, E, F and so on...

I really believe Doodle Pages stand in the first rank of the most successful and long running promotional campaigns ever. And I think that TLF is missing a great opportunity here in not reproducing many of the old Doodle Pages in a collection for sale.

Edited May 11, 2010 by WyomingSlick

[King's X]

Ms. Jo

First, I would love a copy of those doodle pages, I have collected quite a bit but far from the entire collection. I just won't page for them off ebay...rip off in my opinion. Anyways, I believe we can come to a somewhat quick solution or answer to this burning question. Send me a PM and we can work on it for the benefit of leather worker members.

See ya.