make wax

[Xig]

hi

I want to make my leather wax with beeswax, paraffin, olive oil and coconut butter but I don't know their ratios (for solid, semi-solid and liquid wax). please guide me.

[Tugadude]

Here's one take on it:

 

https://colorglo.com/restoration-blog/how-to-make-beeswax-leather-polish-conditioner

[Dwight]

If you make this containing olive oil or almond oil . . . please understand that in time the product will go rancid and have to be thrown out.

The reason is the oils you use.  They are plant based oils . . . and will eventually rot, go rancid, stink . . . and make your product useless.

The one oil that does not do that is neatsfoot oil.  I have products made with neatsfoot oil that are over 10 years old . . . have never had a problem with it.

I use natural bees wax that I personally took from my bee hives . . . and I use the more expensive 100% neatsfoot oil (not the cheap neatsfoot oil compound that contains other oils).

I put them together in a jar . . . put the jar in a pan of boiling water . . . let them melt together . . . give it a couple stirs . . . pour it out into muffin papers.

I use a scale and make it exactly a 1 to 1 ratio by weight.  Adding a little more oil makes it softer . . . adding a little more wax makes it harder.

Because my wax comes straight out of the bee hive . . . it has a slight honey smell to it.

May God bless,

Dwight

[Tugadude]

Dwight makes a great point.  Nobody wants to invest time in making something that will go bad before you use it all up.  So pay attention to his recommendation.

So in this case, it is OK to not mind your own beeswax.

[ScottWolf]

2 hours ago, Dwight said:

If you make this containing olive oil or almond oil . . . please understand that in time the product will go rancid and have to be thrown out.

The reason is the oils you use.  They are plant based oils . . . and will eventually rot, go rancid, stink . . . and make your product useless.

The one oil that does not do that is neatsfoot oil.  I have products made with neatsfoot oil that are over 10 years old . . . have never had a problem with it.

 

May God bless,

Dwight

There is a good deal of urban myth/misinformation in your post that bears clarification. I see the term "rancid" thrown around a lot when it comes to conditioners and leather. There are many others on the inter webs who parrot this information, and it tends to cause some confusion as to what really is and more importantly ISN'T a concern.

 

In the context of leather and use of products on and or in the processing/manufacturing of leather the term "rancid" refers to when the substance itself OXIDIZES. The oxidation of the substance is what leads to degradation and or untimely breakdown of a leather product. Now, everything used on/in leather products will/does change chemically at some point, this includes those commercially available products that people religious stand by while denouncing the ingredients that are actually in their favorite product. A way of preventing and or mitigating that chemical change is to use things like preservatives and or emulsifiers, be it a chemical and or a natural occurring product. All of which can and are used in leather care products. I won't get into the types of chemicals used, as that's a bit involved and beyond what most people can make in their kitchens. However, natural ingredients, like Beeswax, Vitamin E and products high in Vitamin E (Etc, etc, etc) can both serve as a preservatives and or emulsifiers that retard and or prevent substances from oxidizing as they normally would and in some cases prevent it outright. 

Case in point, neatsfoot oil is a tried and true "go to" substance used by leather crafters for centuries, I doubt many would disagree with that statement. HOWEVER, neatsfoot oil is a horrible product in the long term as it OXIDIZES terribly in leather (especially if over used) and causes that super hard and dried out looking leather that we've all seen in older leather products that haven't been properly cared for. This is also why, those who are wise in its use, always caution to use it sparingly and not over use it on leather products. A good example, LEXOL leather conditioner IS Neatsfoot oil, you can see the MSDS on their website that states as much, if you doubt me. That bottle of LEXOL liquid that some people swear by is approx 5-10% neatsfoot oil and 80% is WATER and any of the remaining ingredients are chemical preservatives and or emulsifiers to allow oil and water to mix and retard oxidation. 

So while every substance used in leather care out there has a varying IV ( iodine value), some of which are low (coconut oil for example) and some quite high, which pertains to the concern about oxidation, when used in combination with things like Beeswax, vitamin E, emulsifiers, etc ( or chemical equivalents), these concerns are mitigated, if not outright negated. It should go without saying (CPT Obvious moment) that if you use these substances without the other substances mentioned, that you may very well encounter problems with them oxidizing and causing problems in your leather products, especially if over used, on your leather.  

Lastly, this is not me or my opinion on the internet, it's summarized information based in Science and Chemistry that I invite everyone to research for themselves, as I have done, as it is quite interesting and eye opening in what has been used in the past and is being used now in the process of making/manufacturing leather and its maintenance/conditioning afterwards. The easiest way to start is to pull up some of the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheets) for popular commercially available products and go to section 3 on the document, where you will see what is used in those products and or the approx ratios of each substance to one another. In some cases it can be like seeing the man behind the curtain when it becomes apparent that things like Olive oil, Almond Oil, Safflower oil, mineral oil, etc, all the ingredients that people purport as being "bad" for leather on forums like these, are actually used in those very same commercially available products. 

 

[Dwight]

21 minutes ago, ScottWolf said:

There is a good deal of urban myth/misinformation in your post that bears clarification. I see the term "rancid" thrown around a lot when it comes to conditioners and leather. There are many others on the inter webs who parrot this information, and it tends to cause some confusion as to what really is and more importantly ISN'T a concern.

 

In the context of leather and use of products on and or in the processing/manufacturing of leather the term "rancid" refers to when the substance itself OXIDIZES. The oxidation of the substance is what leads to degradation and or untimely breakdown of a leather product. Now, everything used on/in leather products will/does change chemically at some point, this includes those commercially available products that people religious stand by while denouncing the ingredients that are actually in their favorite product. A way of preventing and or mitigating that chemical change is to use things like preservatives and or emulsifiers, be it a chemical and or a natural occurring product. All of which can and are used in leather care products. I won't get into the types of chemicals used, as that's a bit involved and beyond what most people can make in their kitchens. However, natural ingredients, like Beeswax, Vitamin E and products high in Vitamin E (Etc, etc, etc) can both serve as a preservatives and or emulsifiers that retard and or prevent substances from oxidizing as they normally would and in some cases prevent it outright. 

Case in point, neatsfoot oil is a tried and true "go to" substance used by leather crafters for centuries, I doubt many would disagree with that statement. HOWEVER, neatsfoot oil is a horrible product in the long term as it OXIDIZES terribly in leather (especially if over used) and causes that super hard and dried out looking leather that we've all seen in older leather products that haven't been properly cared for. This is also why, those who are wise in its use, always caution to use it sparingly and not over use it on leather products. A good example, LEXOL leather conditioner IS Neatsfoot oil, you can see the MSDS on their website that states as much, if you doubt me. That bottle of LEXOL liquid that some people swear by is approx 5-10% neatsfoot oil and 80% is WATER and any of the remaining ingredients are chemical preservatives and or emulsifiers to allow oil and water to mix and retard oxidation. 

So while every substance used in leather care out there has a varying IV ( iodine value), some of which are low (coconut oil for example) and some quite high, which pertains to the concern about oxidation, when used in combination with things like Beeswax, vitamin E, emulsifiers, etc ( or chemical equivalents), these concerns are mitigated, if not outright negated. It should go without saying (CPT Obvious moment) that if you use these substances without the other substances mentioned, that you may very well encounter problems with them oxidizing and causing problems in your leather products, especially if over used, on your leather.  

Lastly, this is not me or my opinion on the internet, it's summarized information based in Science and Chemistry that I invite everyone to research for themselves, as I have done, as it is quite interesting and eye opening in what has been used in the past and is being used now in the process of making/manufacturing leather and its maintenance/conditioning afterwards. The easiest way to start is to pull up some of the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheets) for popular commercially available products and go to section 3 on the document, where you will see what is used in those products and or the approx ratios of each substance to one another. In some cases it can be like seeing the man behind the curtain when it becomes apparent that things like Olive oil, Almond Oil, Safflower oil, mineral oil, etc, all the ingredients that people purport as being "bad" for leather on forums like these, are actually used in those very same commercially available products. 

 

Well excuse me Dr. Fauci . . . sorry if I offended your "follow the science".

Science is good . . . so far it has give us three immunization programs that seem to kill a few folks every now and then who only took the medicine.

Science also allowed a rocket to blow up after launch back in 1986 killing the school teacher riding aboard.

Both are unintended.  AND . . . making your own leather conditioner may have "unintended" consequences.  I simply attempted to warn someone who may not have known about the "possibility" of unintended consequences . . . and possibly help them avoid a situation they did not envision.

But of course . . . you and the Lone Ranger rode in to save them from my layman's helpful warning . . . so good of you to do so.

May God bless,

Dwight

[chuck123wapati]

just from personal experience, We had a very stringent chemical program at the prison i used to work in. Oils were one of them and aerosols oil products a strict nono. So in an effort to keep the equipment in the kitchens lubed up the inmates would use vegetable cooking oils including olive among others. I can tell you in a few months vegetable oils dry and turn to a hard rubbery glue like  substance that requires solvents to remove, it didn't smell to bad so not really rancid but there may be other traits not so good for leather that we need to think about also. I 'm not putting veg oils of any kind on my leather, I've spent far to many hours cleaning it off of stuff. I prefer time tested products and i have tested them for most of my 62 years  i have leather products that are 40 years old. i cant see much in history books about using the vegetable oils, I'm sure they did at some point but why they aren't the goto from days gone by has to cause some question about their use in leather work. 

[ScottWolf]

21 minutes ago, Dwight said:

Well excuse me Dr. Fauci . . . sorry if I offended your "follow the science".

Science is good . . . so far it has give us three immunization programs that seem to kill a few folks every now and then who only took the medicine.

Science also allowed a rocket to blow up after launch back in 1986 killing the school teacher riding aboard.

Both are unintended.  AND . . . making your own leather conditioner may have "unintended" consequences.  I simply attempted to warn someone who may not have known about the "possibility" of unintended consequences . . . and possibly help them avoid a situation they did not envision.

But of course . . . you and the Lone Ranger rode in to save them from my layman's helpful warning . . . so good of you to do so.

May God bless,

Dwight

Take a deep breath, it isn't a personal attack against you, it's clarification on a commonly repeated rationalization to not use a substance on leather.

[ScottWolf]

8 minutes ago, chuck123wapati said:

just from personal experience, We had a very stringent chemical program at the prison i used to work in. Oils were one of them and aerosols oil products a strict nono. So in an effort to keep the equipment in the kitchens lubed up the inmates would use vegetable cooking oils including olive among others. I can tell you in a few months vegetable oils dry and turn to a hard rubbery glue like  substance that requires solvents to remove, it didn't smell to bad so not really rancid but there may be other traits not so good for leather that we need to think about also. I 'm not putting veg oils of any kind on my leather, I've spent far to many hours cleaning it off of stuff. I prefer time tested products and i have tested them for most of my 62 years  i have leather products that are 40 years old. i cant see much in history books about using the vegetable oils, I'm sure they did at some point but why they aren't the goto from days gone by has to cause some question about their use in leather work. 

Chuck, great example of what I mentioned above about the effects of oxidation and the concerns about using a substance by itself without other substances like preservatives and or emulsifiers to prevent/retard oxidation.

[fredk]

I. I have personal experience of using a vegetable oil on leather and the leather started to stink after a few months. Also the leather started to show signs of rot, very mild signs. The vegetable oil was put on at the customer's insistence. I had to remake the item for him and boy, did he pay for it! After 10 years of  everyday use that second item was still fine. It was finished off with my beeswax & nfo mix. In the early days of my leather working I did use vegie oil on some items but they did begin to smell different after a few months

2. I have never had any leather item go hard and dry after using pure neets foot oil

But I've only been doing this leather making lark for some 20 odd years so what do I know, except my experiences

[chuck123wapati]

27 minutes ago, ScottWolf said:

Chuck, great example of what I mentioned above about the effects of oxidation and the concerns about using a substance by itself without other substances like preservatives and or emulsifiers to prevent/retard oxidation.

I know you make a conditioner let me know how it works in say twenty years the first 7000 years of leather history  doesn't show much use of vegetable oils mixes of any kind that i know of and i'm not sold. 

[fredk]

  

[ScottWolf]

3 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

I know you make a conditioner let me know how it works in say twenty years the first 7000 years of leather history  doesn't show much use of vegetable oils mixes of any kind that i know of and i'm not sold. 

Take a look into how leather is made and the tanning process then. There are several oils(vegetable and animal) used in that process that most people swear off using. As I eluded to earlier, once you do some research, it puts to bed several misconceptions and the misinformation often shared on leather forums. As for the conditioners I make, all of the natural ingredients used are also found in all/most of the commercially available and used products(per their MSDS)  mentioned in most leather forums. I don't expect people to take my word for it, which is why I encourage people to doubt me ( or anyone for that matter) and do the their own research.

Out of curiosity Chuck, which products , commercial and or home made, do you use to condition your leather items? 

 

[RockyAussie]

Come on guys....steady on up. What do you think VEG tan leather is??? I am noticing more and more lately that members are inclined to get narky with each other unnecessarily. Looking for differing points of experience is something most are wanting to see and experience by coming to LW.

[Klara]

In case anybody wants to know, almond oil and olive oil have been used for centuries on recorders (the wind instrument) without ever one going "rancid". Hardening of the surface, due to oxidisation, would be desirable in a recorder, however. Except that these two oils are not famous for doing so - that would be linseed oil (which oxidises so much that it is generally not used by players, only by some makers).

Incidentally, are you sure you are using pure neatsfoot oil and where do you find it? Over 10 years ago I read the following advice by Jessica Jahiel in her horse sense newsletter: "These days, what you see in almost all containers labeled "neatsfoot oil" is NOT pure neatsfoot oil at all, but a compound full of oils and solvents and perfumes... all additives that damage leather.

I know several riders who truly believe that they use neatsfoot oil on their tack, but I've seen the products they use, and it isn't what they believe it to be. It's a fairly thin, oily liquid with a strong but not horribly unpleasant smell - nice to use, but not at all like genuine neatsfoot oil. One fellow uses it on his boots, and is in the habit of oiling his boots and bridles in the kitchen. He wouldn't be able to do this with the real product.

Real neatsfoot oil is something that you couldn't use in your house unless everyone there had a wicked bad head cold. Real, pure, un-messed-with neatsfoot oil stinks. It's also very thick - technically it's a liquid, but if you're holding a jar upside down waiting for the last little bit of real neatsfoot oil to crawl out of it, you can wait a long time before anything happens..." (http://www.horse-sense.org/archives/20050911124635.php )

 

 

[Tugadude]

I'm with RockAussie, let's tone things down.  Everybody has experiences and none are ever the same.  Try things and if they don't work, try something else.

Besides, this is Rancid...

 

[Sheilajeanne]

Klara, as someone who rode a lot in the past (and cleaned and oiled a lot of tack) I found that very interesting! I have noticed neatsfoot oil will partially solidify at low temperatures. Does that happen with the purer NFO, or with the mixes? I know NFO with petroleum additives will rot stitching after awhile, and is thinner (and therefore easier to apply!) than the stuff that's supposed to be pure. With the 'pure' NFO, I found I'd often have to warm the tack with my hands to get it to sink into the leather.

Edit: any cook will tell you that vegetable oil eventually goes rancid. I would never use it on leather. Yes, it may be in commercial leather preparations, but they have added preservatives to prevent it from breaking down. 

Edited September 5, 2021 by Sheilajeanne

[chuck123wapati]

7 hours ago, Klara said:

In case anybody wants to know, almond oil and olive oil have been used for centuries on recorders (the wind instrument) without ever one going "rancid". Hardening of the surface, due to oxidisation, would be desirable in a recorder, however. Except that these two oils are not famous for doing so - that would be linseed oil (which oxidises so much that it is generally not used by players, only by some makers).

Incidentally, are you sure you are using pure neatsfoot oil and where do you find it? Over 10 years ago I read the following advice by Jessica Jahiel in her horse sense newsletter: "These days, what you see in almost all containers labeled "neatsfoot oil" is NOT pure neatsfoot oil at all, but a compound full of oils and solvents and perfumes... all additives that damage leather.

I know several riders who truly believe that they use neatsfoot oil on their tack, but I've seen the products they use, and it isn't what they believe it to be. It's a fairly thin, oily liquid with a strong but not horribly unpleasant smell - nice to use, but not at all like genuine neatsfoot oil. One fellow uses it on his boots, and is in the habit of oiling his boots and bridles in the kitchen. He wouldn't be able to do this with the real product.

Real neatsfoot oil is something that you couldn't use in your house unless everyone there had a wicked bad head cold. Real, pure, un-messed-with neatsfoot oil stinks. It's also very thick - technically it's a liquid, but if you're holding a jar upside down waiting for the last little bit of real neatsfoot oil to crawl out of it, you can wait a long time before anything happens..." (http://www.horse-sense.org/archives/20050911124635.php )

 

 

i had to look it up as i know nothing about recorders i found this info.

"Almost every maker recommends sweet almond oil with vitamin e oil added to it. The vitamin e oil keeps the almond oil from going rancid."  

You mean you wouldn't use leather water proofing for a recorder ?  Hmmm maybe just maybe thre isn't one answer! 

Edited September 5, 2021 by chuck123wapati

[chuck123wapati]

15 hours ago, ScottWolf said:

Take a look into how leather is made and the tanning process then. There are several oils(vegetable and animal) used in that process that most people swear off using. As I eluded to earlier, once you do some research, it puts to bed several misconceptions and the misinformation often shared on leather forums. As for the conditioners I make, all of the natural ingredients used are also found in all/most of the commercially available and used products(per their MSDS)  mentioned in most leather forums. I don't expect people to take my word for it, which is why I encourage people to doubt me ( or anyone for that matter) and do the their own research.

Out of curiosity Chuck, which products , commercial and or home made, do you use to condition your leather items? 

 

It depends friend on what i intend to use the leather for. My boots for example don't get the same treatment as my wallet. Get what I'm saying? Not all leather will require the same conditioners. But nothing i use will have vegetable oils in it as the main ingredient and that is because of my personal experience and knowledge as i have written above. I see no reason to have to add a bunch of chemicals to an iffy ingredient, the American way founded on trying to sell waste materials,  just to get it to work when there are tried and proven products out there that need nothing additional, sure you can make veg oil work and it may work very well if you add enough other stuff to make it stable but I'm not going to try it on products i make and intend to last for the lifetime of the person I just cant afford to sorry.  I do use neat's-foot on most of my work as the first product for conditioning to start the process of moisturizing or softening the leather its been used for centuries and i have used it for decades and i know it works.  I do make one hell of a castile soap for the family however if that helps you to understand I'm not anti veg oil LOL.

To everyone didn't mean to sound snarky at all or argumentative i apologize to anyone i have offended. 

[ScottWolf]

5 minutes ago, chuck123wapati said:

But nothing i use will have vegetable oils in it as the main ingredient and that is because of my personal experience and knowledge as i have written above. I see no reason to have to add a bunch of chemicals to an iffy ingredient, the American way founded on trying to sell waste materials,  just to get it to work when there are tried and proven products out there that need nothing additional, sure you can make veg oil work and it may work very well if you add enough other stuff to make it stable but I'm not going to try it on products i make and intend to last for the lifetime of the person I just cant afford to sorry. 

OK, let me ask this question another way. How do you know that the products that you do use, don't have any of the ingredients you are opposed to using in them? Do you know what ingredients are in all of the different conditioners you use , be it for your boots or wallet or any leather item of yours? 

[chuck123wapati]

25 minutes ago, ScottWolf said:

OK, let me ask this question another way. How do you know that the products that you do use, don't have any of the ingredients you are opposed to using in them? Do you know what ingredients are in all of the different conditioners you use , be it for your boots or wallet or any leather item of yours? 

OK let me answer in a different way. Friend as a physical plant manager in a prison i had an msds book set that had literally over a thousand different products that i was personally responsible for keeping up and knowing about. Yes i do know what i stick my hands in, breath and or use on my tools and products. It was my life as well as the lives of about 250 employees, 30 of which were under my direct supervision and 896 inmates. MSDS are not a new concept to me by any means. But you missed the point i made or ignored it ,not all leathers necessarily take the same conditioning!

BTW do you have an MSDS for your product?

[fredk]

7 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

You mean you wouldn't use leather water proofing for a recorder ?  Hmmm maybe just maybe thre isn't one answer! 

kinda off-topic

I used to sell a lot of my beeswax/nfo/carnauba wax mix to an antique furniture restorer. He said it was the best polish he'd used for a long time. This guy was no amateur part-timer but one of the UK's best antique furniture restorers, used by museums, 'big' houses, action houses et al

[fredk]

14 hours ago, Klara said:

Real neatsfoot oil is something that you couldn't use in your house unless everyone there had a wicked bad head cold. Real, pure, un-messed-with neatsfoot oil stinks. It's also very thick - technically it's a liquid, but if you're holding a jar upside down waiting for the last little bit of real neatsfoot oil to crawl out of it, you can wait a long time before anything happens..." (http://www.horse-sense.org/archives/20050911124635.php )

I'm not sure about this.

About 15 -16 years ago #3 son and I managed to make some nfo and it was a slightly viscous liquid smelling very beefey. A bit like maple syrup in viscosity. A lot of effort to make about a 1/2 pint but we was learning to make stuff like that, and tallow candles and horn laterns and other weird stuff

6 hours ago, ScottWolf said:

OK, let me ask this question another way. How do you know that the products that you do use, don't have any of the ingredients you are opposed to using in them? Do you know what ingredients are in all of the different conditioners you use , be it for your boots or wallet or any leather item of yours? 

yes, I know whats in it cos I only apply what I make from raw ingredients

Edited September 5, 2021 by fredk

[chuck123wapati]

1 hour ago, fredk said:

kinda off-topic

I used to sell a lot of my beeswax/nfo/carnauba wax mix to an antique furniture restorer. He said it was the best polish he'd used for a long time. This guy was no amateur part-timer but one of the UK's best antique furniture restorers, used by museums, 'big' houses, action houses et al

i use a mix of beeswax and boiled linseed oil much the same way, its an old go to for a variety of things from clothing to furniture. carnauba works great on my antler knife handles i have a can that is decades old.

[ScottWolf]

7 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

 But you missed the point i made or ignored it ,not all leathers necessarily take the same conditioning!

BTW do you have an MSDS for your product?

 

Chuck, thank you for that little peek into your personal life as a plant manager.Not sure what relevance it brings to this conversation or the question I asked you initially though.

I didn't miss it or ignore your point, as you didn't answer the question I asked prior to that. I don't know why you are being so elusive about what conditioners you choose to use on ANY of the types of leather you are referring to. It's simple, do you use any commercial leather conditioning products, and if so, which ones by name? I just find it strange that you are intentionally going out of your way to avoid directly answering a simple question. Makes one wonder.

 

Do I have a MSDS? That's some serious deflection friend. You know I don't have an MSDS. But seeing how you were a plant manager and had a book of MSDS, you know I don't need one, as I am not selling anything I make, it's all for my personal use. But if you want to be pedantic, I could make one through aggregation, given that everything I use is natural and also commonly listed in the MSDS's of most commercially available products. Items like Beeswax, Carnauba, Sweet almond oil, Vitamin E, Coco butter, Shea Butter, Lanolin and just about anything else that is natural and not a petroleum product and or a chemical alternative to a natural product. That includes the food grade D-Limonene I use in one of my recipes, as it is listed in the Code of Federal Regulations as GRAS (Generally Recognized As Safe) and states as much on the actual MSDS I have for it. The only real concern is that it is a flammable liquid and something to keep in mind when making the conditioner. So what I think you are trying to get at is, Yes, I do know what is in my DIY leather conditioning products and so should everyone else, whether they buy their conditioner commercially or make it themselves.

So, which commercial leather conditioning products do you use Chuck?