Cutting Curves?

[MtlBiker]

12 hours ago, fredk said:

My 'leather' scissors are not the speciality type sold by leather suppliers but just very tough high quality scissors. They are by Mundial^. They cost me £12 each and I've ended up with 3 (don't ask). These scissors can cut through thin sheet metal as well.

For curves I don't do anything fancy, I just grab a plate, a bowl, a lid, anything that has the right curve to it, or even just fold a bit of card in half and cut a curve by eye, trimming it to tidy it maybe*. Then draw around it. Using a pen to mark the leather gives me a more solid line to follow. Also, as I'm very colour blind I cannot actually see a scratch mark on leather

* if I'm going to make more of the same item I keep that card pattern shape

^ similar

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mundial-2-inch-Red-Dressmaker-Shears/dp/B0009VEM54

I'll give those scissors a try... thanks.

Funny, Amazon in Canada doesn't have the 8 1/2" version... only an 8" and a 9 1/2" (both Red Dot) version.  I'm going to order the 9 1/2" version, thinking the extra length might give more leverage for thick materials.

A "plate, a bowl, a lid, anything that has the right curve to it" just didn't appear in my kitchen or garage.  As you can see from my first post photo, I needed to round the top of the flap in a shape sort of like a tongue.  I found the easiest way to get that shape was to make a bezier curve in a drawing program.  But of course the resulting paper template couldn't be cut against.  I found it very easy to cut out the paper template using scissors, so your suggestion of a good pair of scissors to cut the leather might work great for me.  Thank you!

[MtlBiker]

11 hours ago, Hardrada said:

All I use for curves is a Don Carlos round knife. Before that knife curves were a dreaded nightmare, now they're a zinch and even enjoyable to cut.

Couldn't find the knife in Canada with a Google search, but Amazon US has one.  Is this the one you use/recommend?

[MtlBiker]

9 hours ago, bland said:

Learning to use a round knife changed my life.  Very versatile.  Tight curves, long straight cuts without a straight edge, skiving, trimming...  I have an old Midas Leather round knife I inherited and a Master Tool from Weaver.  I have been happy with both.  

Did it take long to master the round knife?  I can see that it should make cutting curves easier, but I'm surprised at your statement that with one you can also make long straight cuts without a straight edge.  Surely you couldn't make two long parallel straight cuts, like for a belt, without using a straight edge as a guide.

[MtlBiker]

2 hours ago, jcuk said:

I will have to add the last Osborne round knife i got in exchange for a older one which got damaged is not a patch on the older one i had, good to use when it has been sharpened and stropped but will not hold a edge for very long so i was spending more time on keeping the edge in top order than on my leather work. I am not the only on here who thinks Osborne quality may have dropped which is a real shame. Have said this before think they are trying to compete with cheaper imports from the far east, think thats what did it for Dixons ( a old British maker of no nonsense Saddlers tools that did the job they were made for)  their quality dropped towards the end.

Glad to see George Barnsley are trying to buck the trend over here again no nonsense tools that do the job their single head might be a good knife to get not sure about shipping costs and import duties may make it way expensive. You might be lucky someone that side of the pond may stock them. 

Believe it or not, I just ordered from Barnsley direct.  Their shipping to Canada is quite reasonable (even less than Amazon US sometimes charges) and I'm getting the Barnsley Saddlers Round Knife, a Narrow Skiving Knife and Extension Clicker's Handle with curved blades.  That should be more than enough to get me going with cutting leather.  And it should arrive here before the end of next week too!

Now to watch all the YouTube videos I can find about using these tools properly.

Thanks for the recommendation.

 

[zuludog]

5 hours ago, MtlBiker said:

Believe it or not, I just ordered from Barnsley direct.  Their shipping to Canada is quite reasonable (even less than Amazon US sometimes charges) and I'm getting the Barnsley Saddlers Round Knife, a Narrow Skiving Knife and Extension Clicker's Handle with curved blades.  That should be more than enough to get me going with cutting leather.  And it should arrive here before the end of next week too!

Now to watch all the YouTube videos I can find about using these tools properly.

Thanks for the recommendation.

 

Well I, and no doubt yourself, am pleasantly surprised that you are able to order from George Barnsley directly at a reasonable cost; I have their head knife and it's very good

There's just one thing though. It's fairly straightforward to make a basic knife for leatherwork, but getting it very sharp, sharp enough to cut through leather easily, brings you into The Law of Diminishing Returns as it requires more and more careful sharpening, usually by hand, and so becomes expensive

So to keep the costs down, traditional makers such as Barnsley only provide a basic cutting edge; you are expected to do the final  sharpening and polishing yourself, and you buy the knife on that understanding. There are several videos about sharpening a round or a head knife, and once you've done that, usually all you need for regular use is a strop, or occasionally a light sharpen

You'll probably want to make a sheath for a round or head knife, again there are a few videos, as well as for using the knives themselves

[MtlBiker]

3 minutes ago, zuludog said:

Well I, and no doubt yourself, am pleasantly surprised that you are able to order from George Barnsley directly at a reasonable cost; I have their head knife and it's very good

There's just one thing though. It's fairly straightforward to make a basic knife for leatherwork, but getting it very sharp, sharp enough to cut through leather easily, brings you into The Law of Diminishing Returns as it requires more and more careful sharpening, usually by hand, and so becomes expensive

So to keep the costs down, traditional makers such as Barnsley only provide a basic cutting edge; you are expected to do the final  sharpening and polishing yourself, and you buy the knife on that understanding. There are several videos about sharpening a round or a head knife, and once you've done that, usually all you need for regular use is a strop, or occasionally a light sharpen

You'll probably want to make a sheath for a round or head knife, again there are a few videos, as well as for using the knives themselves

Thanks for the tips about the sharpening.  We use a fine whetstone at my work to sharpen tools but I've never used a strop.  I guess I'll have to make/buy one.  I do regularly sharpen my pocket and camping knives, as well as chef's knives.  So I expect moving up to a finer edge and strop won't be terribly challenging.

Can't help but laugh though, about making a sheath for the round knife...  It reminds me of an old Harry Belafonte song, "There's a hole in the bucket, dear Lisa, dear Lisa..."  The song goes on and on about what should he use to fix it, then how will he cut it, how how will he sharpen the knife, and the stone is too dry, and Lisa says he should wet it, which brings us right back to the hole in the bucket.  I guess you'd have to hear the song to see the humour.  Anyway, what should I use to cut the sheath for the round knife? 

Here's a link to a really old YouTube video of Dear Lisa.

Cheers!
 

 

[zuludog]

1 hour ago, MtlBiker said:

Thanks for the tips about the sharpening.  We use a fine whetstone at my work to sharpen tools but I've never used a strop.  I guess I'll have to make/buy one.  I do regularly sharpen my pocket and camping knives, as well as chef's knives.  So I expect moving up to a finer edge and strop won't be terribly challenging.

Can't help but laugh though, about making a sheath for the round knife...  It reminds me of an old Harry Belafonte song, "There's a hole in the bucket, dear Lisa, dear Lisa..."  The song goes on and on about what should he use to fix it, then how will he cut it, how how will he sharpen the knife, and the stone is too dry, and Lisa says he should wet it, which brings us right back to the hole in the bucket.  I guess you'd have to hear the song to see the humour.  Anyway, what should I use to cut the sheath for the round knife? 

Here's a link to a really old YouTube video of Dear Lisa.

Cheers!
 

 

Yes, I know the 'hole in my bucket' song; it was a regular campfire song when I was in the Scouts, years ago.

As I mentioned, there are several videos on sharpening a round or head knife. For a new knife firstly I used a couple of oilstones with oil, then fine wet & dry paper, 2,500 - 5,000 - 7,000 grit with slightly soapy water, then a strop. I maintain the edge with a strop or sometimes the wet & dry followed by a strop. Just one thing; for most knives you push the cutting edge along the stone in a straight line, but if you do that on a round knife you are liable to make a series of short straight sections or facets, when what you want is a smooth curve. So sharpen your head knife with a sort of constant elliptical motion, the videos will show this - and don't forget to do both sides! If not the blade will be prone to veering of the desired line

Use the round knife to make a sheath for the round knife! Or a utility knife will do the job. Use the knife itself, or stiff card for a  template/pattern There are several videos for sharpening, & making the sheath - those by JH Leather and Ian Atkinson are good, but there are others

You can buy a strop, but it's easy & cheap enough to make your own, again there are several videos; but get a proper stropping compound, green chromium dioxide is as good as any. When the strop turns black you know it's working, because that's the steel that has been removed from the blade

Edited September 9, 2021 by zuludog

[zuludog]

You'll be tired of hearing from me! I was trying to make a properly composed answer to your questions, but really, if you watch videos on sharpening & using a round knife and the sheaths, and making & using strops you'll see enough to pick things up and see how its done

Edited September 9, 2021 by zuludog

[Hardrada]

8 hours ago, MtlBiker said:

A "plate, a bowl, a lid, anything that has the right curve to it" just didn't appear in my kitchen or garage.

This, maybe?

https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/hand-tools/marking-and-measuring/marking-accessories/32536-flexible-curves

 

Before I had the round knife, I got this for curves:

https://windfiredesigns.com/Tools/CircleTool/index.html

 

8 hours ago, MtlBiker said:

Couldn't find the knife in Canada with a Google search, but Amazon US has one.  Is this the one you use/recommend?

Yes, that's the one. I got mine from Abbey England. Rocky Mountain Leather has the Vergez Blanchard for $99: some might prefer the VB since it's not bevelled. I saw that RM has their own brand round knives now too, but I don't know where they're made, so I can't recommend them... yet.

Edited September 9, 2021 by Hardrada

[tsunkasapa]

9 hours ago, MtlBiker said:

Surely you couldn't make two long parallel straight cuts, like for a belt, without using a straight edge as a guide.

You certainly could, but it's much faster to just use a strap cutter.

[bland]

14 hours ago, MtlBiker said:

Did it take long to master the round knife?  I can see that it should make cutting curves easier, but I'm surprised at your statement that with one you can also make long straight cuts without a straight edge.  Surely you couldn't make two long parallel straight cuts, like for a belt, without using a straight edge as a guide.

I would not say that I have mastered the round knife.  It was a little scary to use at first.  I'd use it for a while and then put it away for a while.  Probably for the last 6 months I use it most of the time.   Making long parallel cuts would be a challenge.  I still generally use a strap cutter or draw gauge depending on the leather thickness for belts and longer straps and I usually cut multiple at a time. 

I have used my round knifes to get the initial straight edge on a side or double shoulder.   I have used it for shorter straps for headstall and billets for bag closures.  Primarily the longer straight cuts are on bag bodies and projects like that. 

Being able to use one knife during cutout is definitely a time saver.   

[Hardrada]

1 hour ago, bland said:

I have used my round knifes to get the initial straight edge on a side or double shoulder. 

I haven't used it for that but I have indeed used mine for long straight cuts. It's doable: once the knife is embedded in the leather the embedding itself helps keep it on the straight and narrow.

RE: getting the initial straight edge, @RockyAussie has posted a video of his method. Funny, he uses the same brand and type of knife I have; and apparently it's the only thing he uses it for!

Edited September 10, 2021 by Hardrada

[Klara]

On 9/8/2021 at 7:45 PM, MtlBiker said:

Thank you!  I found that exact same knife on the Amazon Canada website but it says delivery estimated to be Nov 5th to 18th!!!  (But I want it NOW!!!  )

 

(This is about the straight knifes in the japanese style)

I've seen these knives on Aliexpress at various prices. If you still want one you might find one that gets to you before November. I want one now so I'll have a look (which won't help you as I'm in Europe).

I'm using a head knife for much of my cutting, an ex-kitchen knife with a rounded tip for some and a cheap pair of utility shears for some. I'm not perfectly happy with my curves, though. But straight edges with a head knife (or round knife, probably) are easy: Start the cut and then rock the knife forward, push and rock. The rocking is also excellent for chrome-tanned leather. For belts I've bought a strap cutter, though...

 

(Incidentally, it seems as if glaziers used head knifes for scraping putty from old windows. I've asked Friedrich Herder - makers of the Don Carlos knives - where to buy their head knife in the EU and they've sent me to a supplier for windows and doors.)

 

 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Klara
Removed erroneous info and added correct

[RockyAussie]

4 hours ago, Hardrada said:

RE: getting the initial straight edge, @RockyAussie has posted a video of his method. Funny, he uses the same brand and type of knife I have; and apparently it's the only thing he uses it for!

Close to true but not quite. Here's an old picture video I did way back showing how I use it for shaving and I do use it a lot for belt length size cutting. With it I can cut straight down through 5 straps at a time which is pretty handy when you gotta do 50+ at the same size length. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7xMEtBUl6s

shoot I forgot to say I'm the good lookin one on the right at the end

Edited September 10, 2021 by RockyAussie

[zuludog]

2 hours ago, Klara said:

(This is about the straight knifes in the japanese style)

I've seen these knives on Aliexpress at various prices. If you still want one you might find one that gets to you before November. I want one now so I'll have a look (which won't help you as I'm in Europe).

I'm using a head knife for much of my cutting, an ex-kitchen knife with a rounded tip for some and a cheap pair of utility shears for some. I'm not perfectly happy with my curves, though. But straight edges with a head knife (or round knife, probably) are easy: Start the cut and then rock the knife forward, push and rock. The rocking is also excellent for chrome-tanned leather. For belts I've bought a strap cutter, though...

 

(Incidentally, it seems as if glaziers used head knifes for scraping putty from old windows. I've asked Friedrich Herder - makers of the Don Carlos knives - where to buy their head knife in the EU and they've sent me to a supplier for windows and doors.)

 

 

I ordered that cheap Japanese leather knife, from Amazon I think, and it did take a few weeks to arrive but was OK when it did. I've also made my own from an old plane blade

Recently I've been using Etsy to buy leatherworking tools and other items. You see the price in £, which includes any import duty, delivery time & shipping cost; I expect you would get the same thing for your country and currency. I've never had any problems with delivery, and the quality of the items is what you might expect for the price; and there is usually quite a range of makes & choices

Search Google for 'Etsy - Japanese leather knife'  'Etsy - leather edge bevelers' 'Etsy - leather stitching chisels' 'Etsy - round knives' and so on. There are some well known makes like Palosanto and Seiwa, and some less well known. To a certain extent you have to make an intelligent guess about the quality. I usually buy one item, and if that's OK, go ahead and buy others of the same make. Although I haven't bought anything from them, I've heard good reports of Kemovan products, especially their bevel edgers. Etsy also offer 'Since' leather tools, which are Tandy's new up market range. I've also seen Vergez Blanchard tools and Fil au Chinois thread, which are surprisingly difficult to obtain outside France

Yes, I've seen the Osborne head knife sold as a lead knife, for making stained glass windows.

  

[Klara]

What exactly is the advantage of Etsy if I'm looking for a cheap mass-produced knife? Guy buys them from China, has them shipped to U.S., puts them on Etsy and then sells one to me in Europe - at double (or more) the price plus shipping...

[zuludog]

Etsy gives a wider choice or range of items, and you see the amount you must pay including any shipping cost; the delivery time, and the convenience of ordering in your own currency

I did some calculations and found that when you add up the ex factory cost plus currency conversion and exchange rate variations, shipping, import duty, VAT, international postal handling surcharge, the cost from Etsy was hardly any different to ordering/importing an item yourself

Plus the shipping companies and  customs will be used to dealing with the suppliers so the delivery time from Etsy may well be quicker 

No, I don't understand how international trade & finance works, but then, that's not my job. It's not just trade with China or other Far East companies either

You can see that one of my hobbies is making model planes, the plastic kits. There is a specialist American made paint brush cleaner called Masters Brush Cleaning Soap. A 3 ounce (approx 75g) pot from USA was slightly cheaper than a 1 ounce (approx 25g) pot from a UK supplier, both including shipping. Delivery time was quoted as 2 to 3 weeks, but I got it - the 3 oz from USA - in 10 days

Edited September 10, 2021 by zuludog

[MtlBiker]

16 hours ago, Hardrada said:

This, maybe?

https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/hand-tools/marking-and-measuring/marking-accessories/32536-flexible-curves

 

Before I had the round knife, I got this for curves:

https://windfiredesigns.com/Tools/CircleTool/index.html

 

Yes, that's the one. I got mine from Abbey England. Rocky Mountain Leather has the Vergez Blanchard for $99: some might prefer the VB since it's not bevelled. I saw that RM has their own brand round knives now too, but I don't know where they're made, so I can't recommend them... yet.

That Lee Valley flexible curve looks like it'll work well.  I actually had one, oh maybe 30 years ago, but have no idea where it's disappeared to.  I'm going to order one of those.  Thank you.  (Funny, I usually use a VPN, and with it active the Lee Valley site was blocked for me.  Turning off the VPN allowed me to access it.  Guess they don't want anyone who is not in Canada to access.)  Do you think you could cut against that flexible curve?  Or would you use it only to trace the curve onto your material?

 This is the kind of curve I would do most often...  Using Bezier curves in a drawing program allows me to fine tune the size and shape exactly how I want.  But of course the resulting paper template cannot be used to cut against.

 

 

[fredk]

Don't pay too much for the flexi curvy thingy. Its nothing more than a piece of rubberised plastic with wire inside it. A piece of heavy duty electrical cable does the same job

Not used on leather work but on other things I have a set of French curves which are of more use

[Klara]

4 hours ago, zuludog said:

Etsy gives a wider choice or range of items, and you see the amount you must pay including any shipping cost; the delivery time, and the convenience of ordering in your own currency

....

Guess what: Aliexpress does exactly the same, or Ebay, or Amazon. But only when I buy from Amazon directly can I be sure that the seller is in the EU. On the other platforms I need to check (except Aliexpress, its sellers are in China), and especially with Etsy and leather tools items are often enough in the US. or U.K.. So there's always a risk of items being processed by customs. Shipments from China are so small, worth so little and so extremely frequent that none of my orders so far has cost me anything extra.

I do know how international trade works because it has been part of my job every now and then for decades...

3 hours ago, fredk said:

...

Not used on leather work but on other things I have a set of French curves which are of more use

 

I bought them for leatherwork: to get an elegant taper on my sighthound collars...

[Hardrada]

10 hours ago, MtlBiker said:

That Lee Valley flexible curve looks like it'll work well.  I actually had one, oh maybe 30 years ago, but have no idea where it's disappeared to.  I'm going to order one of those.  Thank you.  (Funny, I usually use a VPN, and with it active the Lee Valley site was blocked for me.  Turning off the VPN allowed me to access it.  Guess they don't want anyone who is not in Canada to access.)  Do you think you could cut against that flexible curve?  Or would you use it only to trace the curve onto your material?

 This is the kind of curve I would do most often...  Using Bezier curves in a drawing program allows me to fine tune the size and shape exactly how I want.  But of course the resulting paper template cannot be used to cut against.

 

 

You know, I was just at Staples picking up a DHL parcel and got one of those flexible curves. Staedler brand. Since it's made of plastic, I'd rather not use it for cutting, unless I'm extremely careful. Leather knives being super sharp, those plastic tools would be easy to knick and be ruined.

 

Goodsjapan.com can ship the real deal, Japanese-made, top quality skiving knives via DHL and you'll get them within the week. Don't waste your money on crap from the mainland. I've bought lots of tools from goodsjapan.com and never had an issue with them. They might not look as spiffy as others but they're solid, durable, and perform flawlessly, and that's what really matters.

[MtlBiker]

I just received my knife order from George Barnsley in the UK...

The mailman brought the package in and was bleeding like crazy.  One of the points of the round knife had pierced the box and was sticking out a good 1/2".  When he grabbed the box from his truck the blade sliced his palm open.  We helped him clean it up and bandage it, but I'm pretty sure he needs stitches.  But with the hospital emergency rooms being overloaded (with many turning away patients) due to the Covid surge, who wants to go there?

The round knife had just been wrapped with brown kraft paper without anything at all to protect the blade, and then put into the cardboard box.  Without any padding to keep the contents from banging around in the box.  Shame on Barnsley for not packing more safely.  And other than the injury, the point of the knife was bent at an angle and it's going to need work to get it back in shape.

I also ordered an "Extension Clicker Handle" and blades, and the handle too seems to be bent.  I can't insert a blade (not from either end when I unscrew it).  Looks like the front "jaws" are bent far too closely together so that even the thin blade doesn't fit.  I'm sure I can fix that, but gee, you'd think they would have enough experience to pack these sharp tools more safely.

[jcuk]

Have to agree the way they have wrapped that knife up is totally irresponsible and dangerous hope the Postman is ok. Is the blade damaged, looks like it is in the pic as for the clicker knife i have one i have to undo completely to slide the blades in work a treat though.

 

JCUK

 

 

 

[chuck123wapati]

1 hour ago, MtlBiker said:

I just received my knife order from George Barnsley in the UK...

The mailman brought the package in and was bleeding like crazy.  One of the points of the round knife had pierced the box and was sticking out a good 1/2".  When he grabbed the box from his truck the blade sliced his palm open.  We helped him clean it up and bandage it, but I'm pretty sure he needs stitches.  But with the hospital emergency rooms being overloaded (with many turning away patients) due to the Covid surge, who wants to go there?

The round knife had just been wrapped with brown kraft paper without anything at all to protect the blade, and then put into the cardboard box.  Without any padding to keep the contents from banging around in the box.  Shame on Barnsley for not packing more safely.  And other than the injury, the point of the knife was bent at an angle and it's going to need work to get it back in shape.

I also ordered an "Extension Clicker Handle" and blades, and the handle too seems to be bent.  I can't insert a blade (not from either end when I unscrew it).  Looks like the front "jaws" are bent far too closely together so that even the thin blade doesn't fit.  I'm sure I can fix that, but gee, you'd think they would have enough experience to pack these sharp tools more safely.

that's crazy !! what is wrong with people nowadays?

[Sheilajeanne]

On 9/8/2021 at 10:32 AM, Northmount said:

My Tandy Round Knife doesn't keep a sharp edge.  Has to be stropped every few inches.

Yep, the Stohlman round knife is made from very cheap steel and will not hold an edge!

When I purchased a used round knife the seller was smart enough to make a sheathe for it out of cardboard and duct tape. Wow, sorry that happened! 

Edited September 17, 2021 by Sheilajeanne