An expensive mistake

[ScottEnglish]

Hello.

I recently bought a thick, chrome-tanned hide for making unlined boots. Unfortunately, it's too thick. I'm going to need to reduce the thickness a bit. What options are there for reducing the thickness of the hide in its entirety, or for reducing the thickness of parts of a boot pattern once cut out?

Thanks.

Scott

Edited December 23, 2021 by ScottEnglish

[kgg]

3 hours ago, ScottEnglish said:

for reducing the thickness of parts of a boot pattern once cut out?

I think you have two options:

1. Bring the cutouts to a leather shop that has a leather splitter and have them reduce the thickness for you at a fee.

2. Buy a leather splitter, new or used, something similar to a Cowboy 8020 (new for approximately $2900 US plus plus) or Cobra Class 14 Leather Splitter (new for approximately $3000 US plus plus). This maybe an option if you plan doing a lot but will involve a learning curve.

kgg

[fredk]

Two options I'd go with;

1. if its not too much difference, live with it

2. buy another piece of the correct thickness. That would work out cheaper. You'll pay almost as much to get it split as it would to buy a new piece

[ScottEnglish]

kgg: Thanks for your advice. It would be impractical though every time I make a pair of boots to keep visiting a leather goods business. Too much time and money expended. And I can't justify the prices you've mentioned to buy my own machine which may not get much use in the long-term. If I can't have the entire hide reduced in thickness for a reasonable cost I'll have to sell it at a loss.

fredk: At its current thickness the leather is far too stiff for making footwear. Hence my wondering whether reducing its thickness will make it more supple. However, I've learnt from this forum and my own experience that not all chrome-tanned leather is supple anyhow and I'm not confident that reducing the thickness will solve the problem. I'll reduce the thickness with my knife first to see what effect this has. As I only make simple footwear keeping this hide isn't an option. It either needs splitting if this is economical or selling.

Scott

[Dwight]

There is another option . . . called a jointer . . . a carpenter's tool.

You can rubber cement the hair side of the leather to a very flat board . . . typically a 1 inch thick . . . the same width as the jointer . . . 

Set the jointer so it is not taking off more than 1/64 of an inch at a time . . . and in successive passes . . . you can get it down to what you want.

Then "generally speaking" you can pull the leather off the board . . . and thumb off the rubber cement . . . and go make boots.

If the leather is too wide for a jointer . . . the same can probably be done with a planer which is a bunch wider . . . but I've never tried that one.

May God bless,

Dwight 

[Aven]

Scott, how is it too thick? Could you skive the edges where you are going to sew and/or a

the place where it needs to fold?

[jcuk]

You could see if the supplier where got it from if they have a splitting service maybe they might do it for a small fee. 

Hope this helps

JCUK

[chuck123wapati]

i use a belt sander and a block of wood once your patterns are cut out sand them down, or maybe call the company and see if they will take it back and trade you for thinner stuff.

[ScottEnglish]

Dwight: Are you referring to power tools or hand planes? I want to keep the grain side intact so I can't see how your idea will work. I am a bit dim though!

Aven: On average the hide is about 10oz in thickness. The cutting the seller sent me, I listened to your advice about obtaining a cutting, isn't representative of the suppleness, or lack of it, of the hide as a whole. I do skive joins. 

jcuk: J. Wood Leathers is the supplier. I've already asked if they have a splitting service. They don't.

chuck123wapati: Thanks for the unconventional method for reducing the thickness of leather. I can't return the leather as I've already used some. I would do otherwise.

Scott

Edited December 23, 2021 by ScottEnglish

[Aven]

If the leather didn't match the sample they sent, I would have called them immediately and ask why it was different and have it returned with them paying for it.

Since you have cut into it, either get a manual skiver or skive it by hand. 

[fredk]

I still think your best option is just to buy another piece. And mention to the seller especially what you want it for and what temper you want. When you work up a good working relationship with a leather supplier they'll get to know just what you want and like

I also think you should use veg tan leather. You can change the temper  of veg tan by adding or removing its natural oils

[chuck123wapati]

2 minutes ago, fredk said:

I still think your best option is just to buy another piece. And mention to the seller especially what you want it for and what temper you want. When you work up a good working relationship with a leather supplier they'll get to know just what you want and like

I also think you should use veg tan leather. You can change the temper  of veg tan by adding or removing its natural oils

 sell it to someone on the forum or use it for something else. 

[ScottEnglish]

fredk: Thick vegetable-tanned leather for unlined boots? I know a few people on these forums tried to dissuade me from using vegetable-tanned leather for footwear over a year ago. I still went ahead anyhow and made some shoes using vegetable-tanned leather. I don't intend doing so again unless you know something I don't. Which is probable.

Scott

Edited December 23, 2021 by ScottEnglish

[fredk]

I used to make shoes and ankle-length boots* of medieval style for myself & family and some of the members of my medieval presentation group. I only ever used veg tan except for some 'slipper' type shoes for my dottir when she was a toddler. Those were made from upholstery grade chrome tan and made in the 'turn shoe' style and method.

Veg tan leather has been used for eons for boots and shoes. If it was good enuf and suitable for the cordwainers of old who am I to argue with centuries of experience?

* just once I made thigh-length boots in 17th century style for a chap, never again !  

Thickness of leathers used? afair, vamp & heel 2 mm, sole, inner, 1.5mm, outer sole, 2.5 mm, outer heel, stack of 2.5mm depending on 'client'. Worked and sewn dry but wet formed over a wood last. Sometimes wet formed over a 'client's' foot (one chap had a misshapen foot) Then the leather was sealed with beeswax mixture

[Hardrada]

Would something like this help any?

https://www.goodsjapan.com/leathercraft-safety-skife-knife-flat-leather-skiver-plane/a-20561

They have planes for wood too, which might be better since they're wider:

https://www.goodsjapan.com/takagi-japanese-wood-working-58mm-gisuke-hand-plane-kanna-carpenter-tool/a-19411

[ScottEnglish]

fredk: Thanks for your detailed reply and mention of shoe leather prior to the birth of chrome tanning. Your medieval shoes, am I correct in understanding that they were unlined?

Hardrada: Thanks for the links.

Scott

[fredk]

36 minutes ago, ScottEnglish said:

fredk: Thanks for your detailed reply and mention of shoe leather prior to the birth of chrome tanning. Your medieval shoes, am I correct in understanding that they were unlined?

yes, unlined. There were three soles; the outer walking surface one, an inner sole that the outer was sewn to and then a third inner-sole for foot comfort. That one was usually glued in. Gluing leather together goes right back to at least the Roman Bronze age 

[Spyros]

Don't want to sound negative but the equipment required for thinning large pieces in any sort of even way is neither small nor cheap.

Keep this hide for something else and order another one in the thickness that you need.  Thick chrome tan makes very nice valet trays, which are easy Xmas gifts and everybody wants one.

 

Edited December 24, 2021 by Spyros

[AzShooter]

You should sell the remainder of your hide.  I'm sure if you posted pictures of it someone would show interest.  

Plaining it is going to be a bear.  I recently bought some Buffaloe hide to make a shooting bag.  Turned out to be 10 ounce which is o.k. but I cannot gouge the edges because the inside is so soft. I won't be able to do a mitered fit like the instructions call for.

The good thing is that the bag is for me so I can live with it.  It will become a display model and I'll see if anyone wants me to build them one.  I normally make holsters.  This hide is too soft for that.

 

[ScottEnglish]

fredk: Thanks for answering my question about your medieval shoes.

Spyros: Thanks. I've now decided not to attempt to reduce the thickness of it.

AzShooter: I'm going to try and sell it. I'm only interested in making footwear, nothing else.

 

[fredk]

7 minutes ago, ScottEnglish said:

fredk: Thanks for answering my question about your medieval shoes.

A couple of things that really surprised me when I first got into making 'medieval' shoes & boots

1. not much has changed in 1000 years. Get a book with images of medieval & Viking shoes then get down to the shoe shops in your High street. You'll see many of the same styles in the shops

2. They are really comfortable

A man and wife in my 'medieval' circle made their own shoes and wore them everyday.

PS. if you can, sell that piece of yours on ebay. You'll get a top £ price for it on there

 

Edited December 24, 2021 by fredk

[ScottEnglish]

fredk: I'll research medieval shoes online. eBay. That's a good idea. Maybe I can divide the hide into sides and sell them separately.

[jrny4wrd]

On 12/23/2021 at 11:17 AM, ScottEnglish said:

fredk: Thick vegetable-tanned leather for unlined boots? I know a few people on these forums tried to dissuade me from using vegetable-tanned leather for footwear over a year ago. I still went ahead anyhow and made some shoes using vegetable-tanned leather. I don't intend doing so again unless you know something I don't. Which is probable.

Scott

Veg tan is used on a lot of footwear. Even Nike shoes used to use is. 

 

[Dwight]

On 12/23/2021 at 10:50 AM, ScottEnglish said:

Dwight: Are you referring to power tools or hand planes? I want to keep the grain side intact so I can't see how your idea will work. I am a bit dim though!

Scott

Sorry, Scott . . . I didn't see this until today . . . may be late . . . but something maybe for the future.

Use latex glue on the hair side . . . glue the leather to a very flat board and make sure you do a really good glue job.

Set the powered electric jointer so it does not take off more than 1/64 of an inch or .40 mm . . . run it slowly thru the jointer . . . and it should take off one ounce at a time.

Now I've never actually done this myself . . . but having worked with power tools for 65 years or so . . . I can usually figure out these things.  Take a piece of scrap and try it first to see how well it works.

May God bless,

Dwight

[Tequila]

@ScottEnglish  I’m not sure if these guys https://www.buckleguy.com/  ship international but they’ve got a good selection of leather and weights.