Stitching

[Spyros]

 

7 hours ago, Hardrada said:

Add to your immediate watch list:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQK8R0oYT8o

So I'm gonna go ahead and be the heretic in the room and I will say that I disagree with all those videos, and pretty much everything else I've seen on youtube  

Maybe they are a start for beginners?  Maybe. But I think those steps they describe are unnecessarily complicated and slow, for a couple of reasons:

First, I think that using a stitching pony or a clam is a bad idea.  I think the clam was a necessity when people were using awls, but most people use chisels these days.   So what happens with the pony or clam is, if you notice in all those videos, those guys are always demonstrating with a nice, small and flat piece of leather.  Perfect for clamping.  But what about when you have a whole bag or a difficult stitch in a gusset, or some 3 dimensional object that you can't possibly mount on a pony without damaging it?  You will sooner or later find yourself in a situation where you have to stitch without a pony, and then if you try to follow all those steps in the video you will realise that you need 3 hands to do it, and then you're stuck.  Nobody needs a pony, it just adds unnecessary steps.  Maybe as a beginner they do, until they get the hang of stitching, but after that I think people are better off ditching it entirely and teach themselves to stitch without.

Second, I think it's a bad idea to start a stitching from the left needle.   Particularly when you've made the holes with chisels, which most of us do.  The reason is that we typically punch the leather from the skin side (the "good" side) and that makes the holes on that side much better formed and visible and easier to pass a needle through.  So that's the side you want to first pass your needle through, it is much much easier, and that is the right hand side on the video.  The exit holes on the other side are practically invisible most of the time. And what he does to overcome this is first pass the right needle to open up the hole so he can actually see it from the left, and then starts the stitching from the left.  That's another unnecessary step (which requires 3 hands if you don't use a pony)

Then I don't know why you have to make a cross or cast the thread while you're passing the needle from the holes.  What these steps do can much more easily be achieved afterwards, by simply arranging your hands so that threads can cross or not cross each other as they need to.

Personally I've stopped doing all those things on those videos and I reversed engineered my stitching down to the bare essentials.  I never use a pony or a clam, I don't start stitching from the faraway hole to come towards me ( I do the opposite), I don't cross the needles or cast the thread, and I don't first widen the hole with the right needle so I can see it from the left, I just start each stitch with the right hand needle first .  All those things combined make it way faster and easier.

You're probably thinking my stitching looks crap now LOL

Well, this is the result that I typically get.  Front:

Back:

If that is not good enough, then ok, it's not good enough. 

But that's how I do it.  And when I was doing it as described in those videos I was getting pretty much the same result anyway, because effectively I'm doing the same thing, but without all those steps and ponies.

I think what all those videos do is convey methods and wisdom that have been passed down from generation to generation, but I think that wisdom hails from a time where chisels didn't exist, and you needed something to hold your work while you're dealing with the awl and the needles.  With the high quality chisels that we have these days I think there are simpler and faster ways to stitch.

Edited February 22, 2022 by Spyros

[Spyros]

3 hours ago, Selvune said:

Do I need a cobblers hammer or will the flat side of a ball peenhammer work or my rawhide mallet?

Ty

Any hammer will do, just make sure it doesn't have any indentations on the surface or it might leave marks on the leather.  If it has, sand the flat surface until flat and shiny.

[jrdunn]

5 hours ago, Spyros said:

So I'm gonna go ahead and be the heretic in the room and I will say that I disagree with all those videos, and pretty much everything else I've seen on youtube  

YOU HERETIC!  (I'm not exactly sure what that word means.)  OBTW, your stitching looks great!  I'm more "results oriented" myself.  Results is what you got.  JM2C

[johnnydb]

Chasing better hand stitching is a lifetime affair for me.  

Of course we want better always to the point that our stitches look like a machine did them...

But people aren't machines.  

And those tiny flaws are what create the hand made look.  If course you can't bungle it...but a good job of hand stitching adds value to a product.  It doesn't detract even if you feel like your stitching needs improvement.  

 

I think that you are doing great.  Keep it up.  Keep the angles and order the same every time and they will look great.  I just had a frustrating time with a baseball stitch myself...But it did ok in the end.  

Wait until you start doing the stitching that you use as part of the adornment.  Then you will get really frustrated...I know I do.  Just relax and have fun.  

[TomE]

In defense of using an awl and stitching horse, I don't see a way to punch through 2-3 layers of 9 oz veg tan without leaving an unsightly hole.  I doubt it's faster to prepunch the holes since most of the time is spent pulling up the stitches and (re)positioning the work.  I'd also say that Stohlman's  books on sewing and case making are arguably better than most instructional videos.

Edited February 22, 2022 by TomE

[Tugadude]

You're going to want a hammer with a polished face and one that is slightly domed so that the edges of the hammer face don't leave marks.  I haven't tried, but I'd think a ball peen hammer would be prone to leaving dents, so probably not good for tapping down stitches.

I'm sure many here use other things to tap their stitching down.  Maybe they'll chime in with suggestions.  Some of the appropriate hammers are really spendy but some can be had for a reasonable price.  

[Spyros]

1 hour ago, TomE said:

In defense of using an awl and stitching horse, I don't see a way to punch through 2-3 layers of 9 oz veg tan without leaving an unsightly hole. 

KS blades will do it I believe.  In any case, in extreme situations you have to do what you have to do... awl, sword, spear, whatever works :D

Edited February 22, 2022 by Spyros

[chuck123wapati]

1 hour ago, Tugadude said:

You're going to want a hammer with a polished face and one that is slightly domed so that the edges of the hammer face don't leave marks.  I haven't tried, but I'd think a ball peen hammer would be prone to leaving dents, so probably not good for tapping down stitches.

I'm sure many here use other things to tap their stitching down.  Maybe they'll chime in with suggestions.  Some of the appropriate hammers are really spendy but some can be had for a reasonable price.  

i use a small one just a few ounce head but i dont use the ball peen  i use the flat face for stitches, ball peen for copper rivets. 

[JLSleather]

2 hours ago, TomE said:

In defense of using an awl and stitching horse, I don't see a way to punch through 2-3 layers of 9 oz veg tan without leaving an unsightly hole.  I doubt it's faster to prepunch the holes since most of the time is spent pulling up the stitches and (re)positioning the work.  I'd also say that Stohlman's  books on sewing and case making are arguably better than most instructional videos.

Yeah.  ALL of that.

9 hours ago, Spyros said:

So I'm gonna go ahead and be the heretic in the room and I will say that I disagree with all those videos, and pretty much everything else I've seen on youtube  

Keep in mind that the point of the video is NOT to teach, instruct, or inform.  The video is to KEEP YOU THERE as long as possible, maximizing the number of ADS THEY SHOW YOU.  I had a guy go on (and on and on) about hand sewing and point me to a video that was like hour and a half.  After a couple minutes, I remembered that I can sew that - BY HAND - in far less than the length of the video.  I didn't watch the rest.

But you make a good point about stitching clamps (whatever they call them these days).  Absolutely beneficial where they can be used.  But no different than a sewing machine  ("stitcher" for the purists)... great until you have to sew on a saddle swell ..

I'm ALL FOR Stohlman's book, and that's largely the way I do it.  Start and sew TOWARD me whenever possible (and it usually is).  

I like a STRAIGHT stitch line.. I've always thought that angled look was a bit GIRLY, and I do not do it.  Well, actually, last year I did.. ONCE... on a belt for a very nice lady ...

[tsunkasapa]

I use the wooden mallet that came in the 'starter kit' I bought for the grandkids. I sanded it smooth and stained it. I use it sideways to 'press' pieces that have been cemented, and use the faces to tap stitching and lacing. 

[Spyros]

7 hours ago, JLSleather said:

I like a STRAIGHT stitch line.. I've always thought that angled look was a bit GIRLY, and I do not do it.  Well, actually, last year I did.. ONCE... on a belt for a very nice lady ...

Yeah I don't know... Somehow it's ok to carve flowers on grown mens belts and holsters but god forbid if the stitching is slanted because that would be GIRLY 

[Resurgam3191]

I like a tack hammer or a small ballpeen. Either with a clean polished face. 

Straight or slanted.  Each have their place. Just stitch them all the same

[tsunkasapa]

'Girly"? No, but damn sure nothing to lose sleep over.

[Klara]

On 2/22/2022 at 6:12 AM, Spyros said:

I think that wisdom hails from a time where chisels didn't exist, and you needed something to hold your work while you're dealing with the awl and the needles

Almost certainly true. But the thing is: I enjoy working this way, and not only because it's a lot more economical to work with an awl (and whatever cheap means of marking the stitches) than to hunt for the perfect set of stitching chisels. For me there's something very satisfying about using an awl. I've also found it faster. Yes, there's a learning curve, but I work for my pleasure, not for sale.

[AzShooter]

You've come a long way.  Congratulations. 

Now just keep practicing.  In a few months you will be doing wonderfully.

[chuck123wapati]

5 hours ago, Klara said:

Almost certainly true. But the thing is: I enjoy working this way, and not only because it's a lot more economical to work with an awl (and whatever cheap means of marking the stitches) than to hunt for the perfect set of stitching chisels. For me there's something very satisfying about using an awl. I've also found it faster. Yes, there's a learning curve, but I work for my pleasure, not for sale.

learning to use the awl removes a ton of lost time and headaches trying to figure out how to line up pre punched or chiseled holes for sure.  The old saying "practice makes you perfect". I can see not useing a clam or clamp for large items but i dont think thats what they were made for i think they were made to hold small items that you cant hold and sew at the same time.  I dont see any person holding, using an awl punching and sewing with two needles a wallet with just two hands easilly. And my spell check isn't working for some reason? 

[tsunkasapa]

6 hours ago, Klara said:

Almost certainly true. But the thing is: I enjoy working this way, and not only because it's a lot more economical to work with an awl (and whatever cheap means of marking the stitches) than to hunt for the perfect set of stitching chisels. For me there's something very satisfying about using an awl. I've also found it faster. Yes, there's a learning curve, but I work for my pleasure, not for sale.

I agree 100%. I've used an awl and stitch marking wheels for 35+ years. The whole chisel thing looks like a huge waste of time.

[Tugadude]

Chisels are not a waste of time, nor are they perfect.  They have allowed aspiring leatherworkers to achieve a level of quality that they would not be able to had they only used an awl and traditional stitch spacing methods such as stitch wheel and/or pricking iron.

People who haven't tried something probably shouldn't be pronouncing judgment.  For example, I don't own a sewing machine and so I don't comment on them.  I do, however, notice that there seem to be a ton of people experiencing problems with them, hence the number of threads asking for help.  I could easily assume that sewing leather by machine is a huge waste of time, but I know that isn't the case.

Nothing is perfect, not awls, not machines and not chisels.  And there is a learning curve to all of them.  

There is some extremely fine work displayed on this forum by people who use chisels regularly.  Maybe they will chime in and give their opinion on whether they find it a waste of time or not.

[Samalan]

On 2/22/2022 at 9:21 AM, chuck123wapati said:

haven't tried, but I'd think a ball peen hammer would be prone to leaving dents, so probably not good for tapping down stitches

I HAVE USED A BALL PEEN FOR THE VERY PURPOSE GOT A VERY COOL LOOK ALL THOSE BEAUTIFUL DISHES CAN LOOK REALLY COOL BUT IF YOUR NOT LOOKING FOR THEM THE BALL PEEN IS NOT THE TOOL NOT EVEN THE FLAT SIDE IT'S TO FLAT I USE AN OLD COBBLERS HAMMER WITH THE FACE POLISHED TO A MIRROR FINISH YOU CAN FIND THEM ON EBAY.

[MtlBiker]

2 hours ago, Tugadude said:

Chisels are not a waste of time, nor are they perfect.  They have allowed aspiring leatherworkers to achieve a level of quality that they would not be able to had they only used an awl and traditional stitch spacing methods such as stitch wheel and/or pricking iron.

This very likely is a dumb beginner question, but your comment makes it sound like there is a difference between a chisel and a pricking iron.  Is that correct? 

And a more general question to anyone... With two layers of 6oz veg tan leather and Ritza Tiger 1.0 thread, what is an appropriate size for the chisel or stitching iron?  I'm confused as heck about this.  For example, I have a "3mm" Craftool chisel #88045-06  (or is that a stitching iron?) and it measures 5mm point to point.  My "4mm" one measures 6mm point to point.  And my Craftool Pro (#88056-09) 3mm measures as near as I can tell, 3mm point to point.  That last one is the only one which seems to be the right spec.  How does this make sense?

[Tugadude]

22 minutes ago, MtlBiker said:

This very likely is a dumb beginner question, but your comment makes it sound like there is a difference between a chisel and a pricking iron.  Is that correct? 

And a more general question to anyone... With two layers of 6oz veg tan leather and Ritza Tiger 1.0 thread, what is an appropriate size for the chisel or stitching iron?  I'm confused as heck about this.  For example, I have a "3mm" Craftool chisel #88045-06  (or is that a stitching iron?) and it measures 5mm point to point.  My "4mm" one measures 6mm point to point.  And my Craftool Pro (#88056-09) 3mm measures as near as I can tell, 3mm point to point.  That last one is the only one which seems to be the right spec.  How does this make sense?

Not dumb at all.  It is easy for miscommunication to cloud the distinction and that's why I suggested the following "sticky" subject.

Regarding Tandy, those chisels are measured differently than most.  The one you mention as being 3mm, #88045 would be very appropriate for sewing two pieces of 6 oz. leather with 1.0 Ritza 25 thread.

[chuck123wapati]

2 hours ago, Samalan said:

I HAVE USED A BALL PEEN FOR THE VERY PURPOSE GOT A VERY COOL LOOK ALL THOSE BEAUTIFUL DISHES CAN LOOK REALLY COOL BUT IF YOUR NOT LOOKING FOR THEM THE BALL PEEN IS NOT THE TOOL NOT EVEN THE FLAT SIDE IT'S TO FLAT I USE AN OLD COBBLERS HAMMER WITH THE FACE POLISHED TO A MIRROR FINISH YOU CAN FIND THEM ON EBAY.

sometimes i even use a spacing wheel of the same SPI pushes em down real nice.

[MtlBiker]

1 hour ago, Tugadude said:

Regarding Tandy, those chisels are measured differently than most.  The one you mention as being 3mm, #88045 would be very appropriate for sewing two pieces of 6 oz. leather with 1.0 Ritza 25 thread.

Thank you!  But just to confirm, even though it says "3mm" the point-to-point distance is 5mm.  And that's good with 2 x 6oz and 1.0 Ritza thread?  Or were you thinking it would be 3mm spacing?  (Sorry, just want to be really clear on this.)

And thanks also for the link to that topic.  I will read through it all tonight when I get home.  I had just assumed those items were the same... you say tomato I say tomato. 

Cheers!
 

[chuck123wapati]

1 hour ago, MtlBiker said:

This very likely is a dumb beginner question, but your comment makes it sound like there is a difference between a chisel and a pricking iron.  Is that correct? 

And a more general question to anyone... With two layers of 6oz veg tan leather and Ritza Tiger 1.0 thread, what is an appropriate size for the chisel or stitching iron?  I'm confused as heck about this.  For example, I have a "3mm" Craftool chisel #88045-06  (or is that a stitching iron?) and it measures 5mm point to point.  My "4mm" one measures 6mm point to point.  And my Craftool Pro (#88056-09) 3mm measures as near as I can tell, 3mm point to point.  That last one is the only one which seems to be the right spec.  How does this make sense?

i tend to talk of either tool in stitches per inch,makes life more understandable than mm's. you can also talk about spacing wheels and such then in the same context. i use 1 mm theread with 7 spi chisels they are the craftool fine diamond in 3.5mm. I feel that thicker thread looks better in most cases than thiner thread no matter the spacing.

[Selvune]

Well, "first" official project completed.  Not the prettiest, but functional

 

Yes, I see quite a few issues with stiching and the opening cut at the bottom, but for a very first attempt, I am pleased.  Can't wait to see the improvement as time goes on.  Thanks again for all the advice.

 

Edited February 23, 2022 by Selvune