Wizcrafts

Like Steve said, a post machine. I used to have a Singer post machine and used it to make biker caps, cowboy hats and moccasins. The old ones were only good for #69 thread. Some newer post machines can now sew with #138 thread.

To sew to 7/16 inch, the minimum machine you will require is a Consew 1508H, or Cowboy 1508NH - flat bed, or a CB2500 (GA1) cylinder arm machine. That is the sewing capacity for those machines. The 1508 machines can use up to #207 thread, while the CB2500/GA1 types can use #346 thread. Most leather workers who want to sew to almost a half inch go to the next level and buy a high lift, super heavy machine, which is a clone of the Juki 441 or Adler 204, or 205. These machines use a very long needle, system 7x3 and 794 and can sew beyond 3/4" with #415 thread. Useless for leather. This is a home sewing machine, for cloth, that is limited to using $69 thread and smaller. You are going to run into feeding problems when you try to sew garment leather on a home sewing machine. The top grain tends to stick to the pressor foot. To get around this you'll need to change to a roller foot. The so-called walking foot attachments for home style machines are not true walking feet at all. They have a spring loaded outer foot that follows the top layer, then snaps forward. They reduce the sewing thickness to about 3/16" under the feet. Leather garments are fabricated in factories by little old ladies wearing babushkas, sewing on walking foot Juki and Seiko machines, that go tapokita, tapokita, all day long. Buy yourself a new triple feed walking foot machine, with high lift (Juki 1508H or equivalent) and be done with it. Get one with a new high-torque, small pulley servo motor, rather than a clutch motor.

By model 19 something, my guess is they meant a 31-19. This is a fine machine for tailoring and alterations. It will do a good job on leather garments and chaps. These machines are not true walking foot machines; but are called trailing foot. The outer foot is spring loaded and follows the top layer as it moves backward (no reverse). When the feed dogs drop the spring loaded foot snaps forward and waits for the needle and inner foot to rise, then it drops for the next cycle. This pressor foot is best suited to sticky materials, like garment leather. The maximum thickness under the foot is 5/16" and the largest needle size is #22. It can be used with thread sizes not exceeding #138. These old machines can be had for a couple hundred bucks. They are out-dated by today's standard of real walking feet, with triple feed and high lift.

I just found the place in my control panel to ignore all posts and PMs from another member. Please disregard my previous request for help finding this feature. My time on the forum is better spent not having to deal with bullshit from tat2. Name: Wiz UserName: Wizcrafts IP Address: 68.41.133.25 Email Address: leatherworks@wizcrafts.net

I want to block viewing all posts and replies from a particular troublesome member of this forum from showing when I am logged in. I have looked around, but can't find a link to "block this person." Could you advise me on how to accomplish this task, if it is even possible on this board? Name: Wiz UserName: Wizcrafts IP Address: 68.41.133.25 Email Address: leatherworks@wizcrafts.net

Hauss; Any one of the three machines you listed will sew the projects you described here. Look them over and under, lift the pressor feet with the knee lever, to check if the maximum clearance is suitable, then buy the cleanest machine, with the highest lift and smoothest action when you rotate the wheel 360 degrees. Toe down slightly on speed pedal to disengage the clutch, if the belt is on. Consider the 220 volt 3 phase motors to be paperweights, which will need to be replaced, and see if you can negotiate a better price. When you get you chosen machine home, order a new servo motor from one of our dealers. I bought mine (SewPro 500GR) from Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines. Their phone number is 866-362-7397.

If you have v220 volt outlets in your house or shop, a 220 volt, 3 phase motor will draw half the current as the 110 version would, for the same horse power output. If you do not have 220 volt, 3 phase outlets, those motors will be useless to you and will have to be replaced completely with 110 volt, single phase motors. Clutch motors typically sell for around $110 shipped. These machines were probably set-up for use by upholsters, or denim garment, or drapery sewers. Therefore, they probably have rather large pulleys on the motors, for high speed, get-er-done sewing. If you plan to use one of those machines to sew leather, you'll want to change the pulley on the motor to a 2" pulley. You will also need to buy a shorter v-belt, at -1 inch for ever inch the new pulley is smaller than the original. Not a big investment, but money out none-the-less. If you get a machine with a 110 volt clutch motor, but cannot master feathering the clutch, you will end up replacing it with a DC servo motor. This will cost you between $180 to $200.00 shipped, with a 2" pulley and a shorter belt (if needed). You never said what you want to use the machines to sew. Are you sewing vinyl seat covers, or buffing wheels, or cloth garments, or upholstery, or chaps, or pancake holsters? What? What number/size thread will you be using? How big will each project be? How thick? The job will dictate the type of machine best suited to perform it.

It looks like a 441 clone to me. The machine I sew on at work has exactly the same bottom thread check system and the same thread guide loop. If you can get a front view photo we can get a better ID.

Yer welcome Mary! I hope it helps you pick the right machine from the get-go.

If I had to start over again, and I did in 2009, I would buy a modern walking foot machine, like a new Consew or Juki, or a Chinese or Japanese equivalent, or a cylinder arm walking foot machine, with a flat table attachment. I would avoid old machines like the plague they usually are. My first time around, I spent several thousand dollars buying old worn out or inadequate sewing machines, until I found the ones that could sew thick leather with heavy thread. If you are really lucky you may find somebody who is selling an Adler 205 at a price you can afford. With a budget of $1000, your choices are limited for new machinery. You may have to buy a machine with a clutch motor, then, if you can't master the clutch, buy a servo motor later on. A good used Adler will cost you double what you say you want to spend, as will the new Chinese clone machines (which are now excellent). Here is how I went about purchasing and modifying an industrial sewing machine, in mid-2009. This was before I discovered this forum, with all of its leather machine dealers. Now, one can buy a machine already optimized to sew leather, at very good prices, with awesome followup service. I watched my local and nearby listings on Craigslist until I found a local company that listed leather and upholstery sewing machines and vinyl for sale. I scheduled an appointment and was first shown a room full of cloth and vinyl material, with a bench full of fur sewing machines and sergers. I told the lady that they were not leather sewing machines, as advertised in the CL listing. I was then taken upstairs, where they had the ugliest Singer 111w155 I have ever seen! It was missing the pressor feet, and was mounted onto an old, cracked, brown wooden table top, with an outside the motor clutch mechanism, as old as Noah's Ark. I declined and was told that there was one more machine, but she didn't know if it was for sale. I insisted on seeing it. The machine was a Japanese built National 300N walking foot machine, with virtually no wear, or dirt, or grease on or under it. It had a 1/2 HP clutch motor and sewed perfectly, on vinyl. I was able to buy that National for the same price they were asking for the p.o.s. Singer that was missing the feet. Later on, I learned that I could use a longer needle system, type 190, which are used in Pfaff walking foot machines. After raising the needle bar 3/16", to maintain the timing, I was (and still am) able to sew just about 1/2 inch of leather, albeit with #138 thread. Number 207 thread does work, but not as well into ~1/2" of leather. Still, by limiting that machine to 7/16" of leather, I am able to use #207 thread, with a #24 or 25 leather point needle. I finished off the upgrade by purchasing a SewPro 500GR servo motor with a 2" pulley and shorter v-belt, from Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines. When it comes to sewing beyond 1/2 inch, you need a big dog, "441" clone machine (clone of Juki 441), or Adler 205 or clone. These will cost you between $1800 and $5900, depending on the brand and length of arm/workspace. For instance, a 9 inch cylinder arm walking foot 4412 clone machine, sold by most of our member dealers, can be bought for about $2100 shipped (or less). The same brand with a 16.5" arm will cost about $2500 to $2700 shipped, depending on if it has all available accessories added to it. For sewers who only need to sew up to 1/2 inch, and don't mind tooth marks on the bottom, there are the GA1 and Cowboy CB2500 10.5" cylinder arm machines. These machines typically go for under a grand, plus shipping. Adding reverse bumps up the price by about 300 bucks. Roughly $1500 to $1600 investment gets you the machine and most available add-ons, shipped. Both the CB2500 (GA1 types) and 441 clones (and a real 441) can sew with very heavy nylon thread, #415 or heavier. They use needle sizes 26 or larger, which none of the lesser machines are capable of using. These machines have long, spool shaped bobbins, with disks on the ends, which hold a huge amount of thread. You won't have to stop in the middle of most jobs to change bobbins, if you start with a fully loaded bobbin, tightly wound. Most standard upholstery type walking foot machines are limited to a #25 needle, maximum. Most of them have small or medium capacity bobbins. If you are able to get the machine to sew with #207 thread, the bobbin will run out after a handful of belts. With the standard system 135x needles, they can only sew to 3/8 inch.

If you do decide to market these contraptions on the forum, I will be one of your first buyers. I have the newer style patcher; a 29k172.

Now I don't feel so foolish!

I wish I had a one way treadle on my long arm Singer patcher! It is fine when already in motion. But, when I stop and restart, I often have to hand wheel over the "hump" to get it to run forward.

Your needle/thread chart matches my personal experience. I have bought thread on eBay that comes in the cord/size and in T designations. I use charts I found online to cross reference these numbers with the sizes I am familiar with. The most common difference is nylon thread is between the B or V numbers and the T numbers. For instance, B or V, or # 69 is the same as T70, while #277 equals T270, which is the same as 4 cord linen. Confused yet?

For anybody else who wants to sew leather, bobbinless, there are some time-proven, heavy duty, leather sewing, needle and awl chainstitch machines still being produced by the Puritan company. I came very close to buying one for cheap, several years ago. These machines are best used with waxed linen thread, which won't unravel if one stitch breaks. They are used to sew golf bags, briefcases, luggage, boots, shoes, gun cases, bowling ball bags, and other items that need a very strong stitch, the back of which is not usually seen. Other industrial machines already exist that perform a chain stitch. Most of these machines are not strong enough to sew leather and can't use waxed linen thread.

Caffy; If your holsters are only going to be two layers of 9 oz veg-tan leather, a 227 type machine will do fine. But, it will be limited to using #138 thread. Most holsters are sewn with #277 thread, or thicker. To use heavier thread you will need to move up to a more capable sewing machine. Some of the heavy weight sewing machines currently in use by our members are sold by Cobra, Cowboy, Artisan, Ferdo, Techsew, Adler, Campbell-Randall and Juki. Most of these companies have stitchers capable of sewing to and beyond 3/4 inch of hard leather. There are some that are fed by feed dogs on the bottom; some that have triple feed and some that have a needle and awl and jumping foot. Since you are a beginner to industrial sewing machines, I would recommend that you use a simple to operate machine, like the ones we refer to as 441 clones. Based on the Juki 441 type, these machines come with cylinder arms in lengths of 9" up to 25". You might do fine with a 9" model, such as the Cowboy CB3500, Cobra Class 3, or equivalent in other brands. These 9 inch stitchers can be bought for about $1,800, plus shipping (some are more, some are less). If you think ahead you'll anticipate that someone will ask you to build something too large to be sewn on a 9" arm machine. Fore-planning suggests a 16.5" arm machine, like the Cowboy CB4500, or Cobra Class 4, etc. These machines all use very thick thread, huge needles and have very large bobbins. All are sold with easy to control servo motors and speed reducers. These machines sew over 3/4 inch and sell for $2500, plus or minus, plus shipping. The reason for the plus or minus in the pricing is that most dealers offer accessory packages that are optional. Also, prices may be going up due to money market factors.

Ronnie; I dream about sewing machines all the time! Tapokita, tapokita

Tat2 and Bob; Do you guys realize you were replying to a topic that is almost three years old now and hasn't been updated since the summer of 2008?

Sorry we had that misunderstanding. I posted this ad as a favor to the fellow I work for on a part time basis. It is his machine. I think it is a good deal because of all the dozens of extra blades and custom made spacers included with it and the work he had done to add grease fittings and sealed bearings. That machine flat out slices leather backs and bends into straps. All of the sewing machines that M&M had for sale have been sold already.

Chris; Call Campbell-Bosworth (800-327-9420) and ask if their N&A machines will sew biothane effectively. Maybe they can get some and sew it together for you as a sample. Then you can assess the result. Since you're in Ohio, if you can get some biothane straps you could take them to Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines (866-362-7397), or Ryan's Saddlery in Lima Ohio (866-507-8926), and see if one of their various Cowboy stitchers will sew it properly. It believe that you can do this by using a size larger needle than normal to open a bigger hole, with #277 or #346 thread. The tensioning and take-up parts are plenty strong and can easily handle the added strain. These machines are very powerful and can be run very slowly, with huge amounts of punching power at slow speeds.

Chris; I realize that I provided an overwhelming amount of information in the sticky article I posted. But, you can read a little at a time to get the best understanding of the different types of machines and their feed mechanisms. You asked what other than the sewing thickness capacity you should look for in a harness stitcher. Let me try to help you with that. Harness, halters and bridles are usually made of bridle or harness leather. It is usually of medium temper and marks quite easily (although marks can be rubbed out) and is hot stuffed with waxes. A harness stitching machine will have one of the following types of feed system: 1: needle and awl jumping foot; 2: needle feed jumping foot; 3: compound feed, with smooth or no feed dog. 1: Needle and Awl Machines. Campbell-Randall and Union Lockstitch (ULS) machines are the best of class needle and awl machines and are used by the top harness and holster builders. They use either glazed linen thread run through a wax pot, or bonded polyester (or nylon) thread. Most show harness is sewn on a Randall using 4 cord, left twist, Barbour's Irish linen thread, run through Lax Wax or another pourable liquid wax. Four cord linen is sewn with a #1.5 (170) or #2 (180) needle and a #2 (180) or 2.5 (190) awl.The equivalent bonded thread is 207 or 277. The difference is that linen thread is very soft and flexible (until the wax hardens) and bonded polyester is considerably harder. Nylon thread is even harder than polyester and is much harder on the take-up system, when it comes time to pull up the locked stitches. I use bonded nylon in my ULS without much problem. There are two styles of Campbell-Randall stitcher: standard lift (3/4") and high lift (1 1/8"). The ULS is capable of clearing just a smidgen over 3/4" of material. They are both capable of sewing thin leather, down to 6-8 ounces, using 3 cord linen or #138 polyester, all the way up to 8 or 10 cord linen (#554 bonded), by changing the needle and awl combinations. The Randall and Union Lockstitch machines have true square drive. The Randall uses a moving awl to stab, then pull the leather back the preset stitch length. The ULS uses the needle to pull the leather back. Both move the needle or awl straight back, rather than pivoting them from above, like standard machines do. This eliminates the pendulum stitch length problem when very thick leather has shorter stitches on top than on the bottom, or than thinner leather has. It is a fact of physics that causes this stitch length variance in pivoting needle machines. Randall and ULS machines can sew through soft metal and plywood, if you use a large enough awl. This comes in handy when sewing briefcases, luggage, or items backed with plastic (saddlebags, seats). What needle and awl machines don't do very well is to sew nylon webbing! I have done it and done it well, but you have to make sure that you use the smallest needle that will hold the thread, so as to completely fill the barb of the needle with thread. This leaves very little exposed barb to catch and rip the nylon or polyester webbing, or buffing wheels. This works for me. Also, needle and awl machines require great care to turn the work around and back tack into previous stitches. The barb, if exposed, can rip out the bottoms of the previous stitches. To counteract this I turn the leather at an angle that points the previous stitch line away from the barb as it descends, as I back stitch. With care, it works fine. 2: Jumping foot needle feed machines. Few and far between anymore. The old Number 9 and later Luberto Classics, along with most Ferdinand Bull machines (and I think the Adler 105 or 205-64?) have a needle feed and jumping foot. There is no feed dog on these machines, making them a great choice for saddle and harness makers. Like the needle and awl machines they have a slot in the throat cover plate, big enough to allow the needle to move its full potential stitch length. Most makers offered plates with narrow or wide slots. But, most of these machines are now out of production. I do believe you can still get Ferdinand Bull machines, but am not familiar with their current feed systems. They used a system called square drive, where the needle was pulled straight back, rather than pivoting from an axle on the top. This allows them to sew through very thick multi-layer leather without any difference in the entry and exit hole positions, as mentioned earlier. These jump foot machines are capable of sewing with large needles and thick thread; usually up to #554. 3: Compound feed machines. This is the most common stitching machine in use by leather makers today. Based either upon the German Adler 205-374, or the Japanese Juki 441, these Chinese clone machines look and sew just as good as the originals they are copied from. They are much less expensive than their ancestors. These are walking foot triple feed machines, where the inside pressor foot, the needle and the feed dog all move at the same speed and distance (except for pendulum effect in very thick material). This results in positive feeding of the material. The original machines shipped with teeth on the feed dogs and sometime also one the pressor feet. Most of the current importers and sellers of these clones will remove the standard dog and feet and equip the machines with so-called harness feet, and a smooth feed dog. This produces a very nice stitch and not too much puckering on the bottom. The 441 clones are usually available with cylinder arms of 9", 12.5", 16.5" and 25", depending on the brand. The 9" are referred to as mini-stitchers. The 25" are sold to saddle makers or people repairing buggy fenders. Most crafters use the 16 1/2" arm machines. The Adler and its clones have 12" or 25" arms. Most of these machines can sew between 3/4 and 7/8 inch of leather, using a large needle and sewing very very slowly. They come with powerful servo motors that have speed limiter controls (single rotary knob or up-down buttons) and speed reducer wheels between the motor and machine. They all have various accessories and optional items available, including non-standard single toe pressor feet, raised throat plates, box corner attachments, flat table attachments, swing-away roller edge guides, and wax/lube pots. Not every company carries all of these accessories, but they can be had by shopping around. Pricing Needle and awl machines are extremely expensive new (~$10k), very expensive rebuilt (~$3600), and expensive used but fixed up (~$2500). Most sell used for what a 16.5" 441 clone sells for brand new, which is about $2500 USD. Adler 205-370/374 machines sell for way over $5000 new. Weaver is the main dealer of Adler machines and they only sell to people with a tax license for their state, who open accounts. That means that a leathercrafter who is just expanding his business and not yet established as a retailer, or who only contract sews and needs no license, can't buy a machine directly from Weaver. Most of these folks buy a 441 clone, or Adler clone, from one of the dealers who are members of this forum and for half what Weaver charges for an Adler. The only license they need is a big handful of long wheelbase 10's. Weaver has lost tons of sales because of their policy about requiring State licenses and accounts, but they probably care as little as I care about them. Crafters on a smaller budget can buy a 9" arm stitcher for well under $2000, plus shipping, all set up and well equipped. The newer models sew over 3/4" of leather and do it very well. These mini-stitchers will sew holsters up to nine inches turning distance. This might leave out makers of long barrel Western holsters, unless you only edge stitch the outside perimeter. But, you will be able to sew knife sheaths, pouches and cases, chaps, belts, wallets, etc. If you know you won't be sewing any hard leather projects exceeding 9 inches to the right of the needle, a mini-stitcher may be perfect for you. If you're not so sure about the distance requirement, buy a longer arm machine and don't worry about it anymore. Whatever type of machine you are considering for your shop, make sure you can still get needles (& awls), bobbins, replacement parts that normally wear and help if something goes wrong (see below). Lastly, you need to consider the availability of phone assistance with minor operating problems and actual machine repairs and servicing, should something jam or break. Most or all of our dealers offer phone support, or at least email support. Most will send you parts so that you can repair a damaged part yourself, rather than shipping the whole machine back by truck. But, if the worst happens, and as Forrest Gump said: __it happens, our dealers will try to repair a badly damaged machine at their location and send it back to you repaired, if possible. What I am saying is if the machine falls off the table and onto a concrete floor and the case cracks open and bearing housings are exposed, it might not be repairable. But, I'm not the one to say what a torch Wizard can or can't do! Now, go get you a machine!

1:) I will talk you out of buying a Campbell Randall machine to use in your shop. Buy it and have it shipped to me instead! ;-) 2:) The biggest piece of advice I can give you is to go to Yoakum Texas and get instruction on the premises, where the machines are sold. If after being shown how to thread and operate the machine you still cannot Grok it, see suggestion #1.

I have one set of pressor feet that I use a lot on rifle slings. They are left toe only. The original outside foot was leaving a really visible harsh line in the raised portion of the foam padded area and I got complaints. So I took the outer foot to my sander/buffer and radiused the the outside bottom edge, then buffed it to a high polish. This foot now leaves almost invisible, but smooth tracks that can be rubbed out easily. I also polished the inside bottom edge.

A narrower needle requires less top pressure to keep the leather from lifting as the needle ascends. If you were using a #22 needle and #138 thread top and bottom, changing to a #21 needle, with #138 on top and #92 in the bobbin will give a good tight stitch, with knots well into the leather. But, the pressure required to hold down the leather is reduced. Therefore, you can back off the top pressure spring, or springs if you have two, reducing the visibility of any foot marks. A side benefit to a smaller needle is a smaller exit hole on the bottom.

The SewPro 500GR only draws a single watt when not engaged. It draws 300 watts at full load. Mine has never even gotten hot to the touch. By contrast, the 1/2 horsepower motor it replaced drew about 550 watts and could warm my expando in idle. The motor makes no sound in idle and it's easy to forget it is switched on. Remember to switch it off when it's not in use. You wouldn't want your kid or pet to accidentally push on the floor pedal and start the machine running.