Bar C Leather

I acquired this beautiful saddle from my husband's aunt who I believe had it custom made many years ago. It is stamped with Leonard Galvin's mark while he was still using the Shirley Brown Saddlery name. Can anyone tell me what year he changed the business name? That might help me figure out the saddle's age. I am trying to put a value on this saddle but I can't even begin to do so without knowing what Leonard's saddles sold for and how much experience he had when he built this saddle. I know that my husband's aunt was showing half-Arabs and that she spared NO expense for her horses and showing career. Any help would be appreciated. I understand that Mr. Jay Nordley studied under Leonard, Jay?? Any ideas? Thank You!

Hi Jay, I guess you are the man of the hour! I've inherited a beautiful pleasure saddle built by Leonard while still under the Shirley Brown Saddlery name. Unfortunately it just sits on my saddle rack being beautiful as I don't ride western pleasure...its comfy for a trail ride but I am considering selling it and would love to know some background on Leonard's saddles and get an idea of what this saddle is worth. I've done a lot of research online to no avail. I believe that this saddle was custom made for my husband's aunt and that she is a millionaire who, at the time, spared no expense for her horses. I'd hate to sell this saddle for less than its really worth. Thanks, Natalie

Hey Chris, Not a problem getting the tree for the Shetland. Got it made by Bowden. The girls may be proud of it but I ordered it 2 years ago and was so scared of messing up I didn't get the nerve to start it until this summer! My oldest probably won't get to ride in it much before she's grown out of it. There are MANY lessons I have already learned. I was very worried when modifying the design for the fork cover and at the end I was glad to have it on but not really happy with how it looked. I did feel that the welts went up too high and that maybe that was part of the reason they wanted to gap at the top. They didn't come out perfectly straight either. Any tips on blind stitching? Or what the best method for covering the forks is? I have the Leather Crafter's Journal saddle making series by Pete Gorrell and Dusty Johnson's book as well as Al Stohlman's and a video by Bruce Cheaney. This particular pattern was modified from Stohlman's book and I had to use the lacing to cover my horrible blind stitching job! ) Thanks for your feedback! ) Natalie Carroll

I had been thinking a lot about the fiberglass since this thread. I do know that I've peeked under some saddles and noticed that some fiberglass coatings seem to deteriorate and begin to crumble in certain places. I do like the idea of rawhide because of its endurance. I've noticed what looks to be a clear rubbery sealant used over the stitching on the two trees I have ordered. Could you tell me more about protectants (I'm guessing some may be detrimental to the rawhide?), or is there somewhere I can read more about it? Thanks, Natalie Carroll

I have the EXACT same problem and I always check the thread tension and needle size to thread size ratio and lube regularly. No burs or hang ups but every once in a while I do get that same entanglement and it really messes up my rhythm. Used to happen more before I figured out "no short stroking allowed!" I must check out the spring though... Mine is probably about 8 years old??? I must admit I don't always lube my thread on veg-tanned leather though. I'll definitely keep that in mind, as veg-tanned is mostly what I work with! Regards, Natalie Carroll

I tried to organize the pictures for you but this thing is giving me trouble. So here they are in no particular order!! This is a 2 yr old cutting bred filly ...probably won't get bigger than 14.3H and short backed. How do you decide how to fit a growing horse? She's slightly higher in the croup right now too. Did my best to get lots of pictures as she's growing in her winter coat pretty well and the winter shadows are bad. The tree: Buster Welch Ranch Cutter 16" Seat 8.5" X 6.5" Gullet I'd have liked to gone with a smaller seat as I ride in 14.5 to 15" seats but for cutting it is recommended that avg. woman go with 16" Do the bars need to extend so far behind cantle? I know there is a formula for that with weight distribution but I'm not familiar with it. I don't like the way it gaps over her loins and it wants to slide off her back fairly easily when she flexes. I'm still having a hard time deciding where it should lay on her shoulders. All feedback VERY WELCOME!! Regards, Natalie

Points well taken. I suppose I should just keep up my research and trust that I can judge the fit of a saddle by the methods I've learned already and study more every chance I get. Thanks! Natalie

It's really nice to be here among experienced makers since my current status doesn't allow me to attend a saddle making school (and I'm not sure I could make my mind up where to go if I was able!) I think it's almost better to get feedback from many experienced makers. I already use 4 different sources as far as literature goes and I seem to be just picking what I feel works best for me and the saddle I'm making for this first saddle. I actually have ordered my first and second trees. They are both from Bowden and one was ordered two years ago and the second just last month. I am in the middle of construction of saddle number one and have posted some of my progress and I'd love if you all could give me any feedback, good bad or otherwise!! http://leatherworker...showtopic=19740 The main reason I was considering other options was that I have a 2 year old filly and the tree I ordered for her seems to have too much rock and the bars extend what seems to be too far behind the cantle for her short, cutting horse back. I know there are "rules" and that the weight distribution is important. Can anyone tell me what they feel is a good ratio of bars behind the cantle... I know it probably has to correlate with seat length. I'm sure there is a good chance that whatever I find to fit her back now, she'll grow out of, but we're getting to a point that her training needs to step up a notch and I want to be sure that her saddle fits so we don't run into any problems. Many Thanks! Natalie P.S.... No, I didn't start the first saddle when I ordered the tree two years ago . Started it in August and working as time allows and as I aquire/build the tools I need.

It's really good to get some others' perspectives! I was still on the fence, leaning toward traditional. In fact I wasn't even sure about glass or kevlar coated but at least now I know they are a good option and I'll steer clear of the flexible bars and just focus on finding a good fit and a system for measuring. I think I'll go ahead and order the Dennis Lane system. Even if a tree maker isn't familiar with the system, It can probably be used to draw the curves like you would with a flex curve. Many Thanks! Natalie

That has always kinda been my gut feeling about all these new-fanagled ideas...its been mostly my gut that has told me to stick with good ol' fashioned wood 'n bull.... but I'm always wanting to quench my thirst for the latest news and technology.

So, I am intrigued by the computerized saddle fitting system and I think I could really have a business using one here in the "Horse Capital of the World," Ocala, FL. My best guess is that it is a pretty pricey system, so until I can research it more and afford it.... what do you all think of this little doo-hicky? I haven't made up my mind about it yet, trying to figure out if there's just too much room for error to trust it. http://www.reactorpanel.com/RPstore/product.php?productid=23&cat=6&page=1

I'm only just building my first saddle but have been researching and preparing for a couple of years now. I was thinking about the fact that Parelli uses the flexible bars/tree. I know they are built in Germany and that they charge over $5000 for many of these saddles which from what I saw is a nice looking but non-tooled saddle. I have heard a lot of buzz about the flexible trees in the barrel racing world too...but I know that they tried treeless saddles for a while and that seemed to have dissolved pretty quickly. I personally worry about the backs of my horses and am on my second (personal) hard-to-fit horse. I know how much an ill fitting saddle can affect a horse's performance as is common knowledge for all saddle makers. The main reason I was considering the flexible bars was because I currently have a two year old filly who's back currently calls for less rock than the 'average' tree but as she grows I'm guessing that will change. Some concerns for me in researching these flexible bars: 1. The company claims the material holds tacks/nails BETTER than wood.... personally doesn't seem logical with the movement. 2. Says that the material can mold to an uneven back over time. So, then this would be a one horse saddle? 3. Claims that they have not experienced or heard of a single instance that the bars came loose from the fork or cantle. I suppose this could be true but they aren't covered with anything after attachment so it still seems quite possible. I'd like to be able to offer the "latest" to clients but my primary concern is making sure I'm building the best saddle I possibly can. I want to be informed enough to tell my clients the whys and why nots for their options. More information from saddlers who've tried these trees or even second hand knowledge would be awesome!! More info on the Dennis Lane system would be great too!!! Thanks, Natalie Bar C Leather

I got two nylon ones and they will work for now, I just don't like how much bounce they have. Just remember NOT to use your maul or mallet for imprinting...you need to use a metal hammer to reduce the bounce!! I can't wait to have a nice metal one made that can be used with a heating element also! Infiniti Stamps is who I plan to use but not 100% sure yet.

Just wondering what type of system you all use for measuring backs for trees. I have tried the flex-curve and ordered accordingly but it doesn't really account for rock. I ordered a ranch cutter and it actually seems to have too much rock, but then again, I'm building for a 2 yr old filly and probably shouldn't be building to custom suit her until she grows up a bit!! I've seen the fitting system you put in the oven...blah blah... think that's not going to be real accurate, heard bad things and too much shipping. I've heard of the new system by the guy out of Australia... and darned if I didn't bookmark the page and can't remember his name . Steele Saddle Trees sells their sets but really....I don't have the experience to be making such a pricey decision. Also, is there a good rule as to how much bar you should have behind a seat? This filly is a cutting bred filly and will maybe mature at 14.3 with a short back. The "rules" say I should have a 16" seat for cutting to allow for sliding around in the saddle, which I completely understand as you really can't be slamming into the cantle and swells and ride smoothly. Do you all believe in sticking to the traditional bull covered wood trees? What do you think of the Steele flex trees (the wood fork and cantle with rubber type bars) I just feel drawn to building traditional but I've also had fitting problems in the past that drive me nuts! Thanks in advance!! Natalie

Okay, I don't feel worthy of posting my work in a "gallery" but it seemed the most appropriate place! I've been working with leather for over 10 years and am self taught. I've always dreamed of making saddles and after a few years of studying up on the art...I'm taking the plunge!! My first saddle is an 11" Buster Welch Barrel Racer for my two young daughters and their 39" shetland, Gator. I've already learned MANY lessons and am making notes as to what I'll be doing different with the next saddle. I knew going into the project I'd be breaking some ground rules...like building it from two consistent hides. I'm actually using "leftovers" and doing my best to cut from the right areas and match doubles. I'm not cutting any corners but lightening the load where I don't think it will compromise quality...as I'd like that the girls could actually lift the saddle while they can still ride in it!! I'm usually my harshest critic and I'll spare you all the things that make me cringe on the saddle so far!! I would really love to hear some feedback from you experienced saddle makers. I'm very open to constructive criticism! Starting with the gullet cover... and the bottom horn piece This shot is to show off the beautiful draw down stand my hubby built me!! Seat strainer cut from factory made full size strainer Plugs Building the ground seat My rigging rig! I built Dusty Johnson's model. Very strange feeling tooling on a horn!! Actually started the stirrup covers a year or so ago!! It's amazing the little ways our work changes over time. Swell cover. I wanted to do more tooling but was a little worried about how everything was going to turn out!! Blind stitching (didn't turn out so well, maybe because I'm using strap leather instead of skirting...too thin? And I don't have a real awl either ) Before the wrestling match And after Fender tooling Painted fender and billets Thanks! I can't wait to hear from y'all!! Natalie Bar C Leather

Looks awesome! I'm up here near Ocala and been dreaming of opening up a shop myself. I'm just curious how its going so far in this market. Hope its booming!! Congrats.

Haha! Go big or go home for sure!! I bought a custom tree for my kids and their pony two years ago and just finally got the gumption to start it in August. Mostly I was afraid of messing it up and making the world's ugliest saddle. You have to start somewhere...and I guess you really went for it!! Good job, I'm certain I wouldn't have done that well 10 years ago when I started in the craft. I think the research I've done has taken up a good part of the last two years!! :0) I can see the light at the end of the tunnel...just wish I had more hours in a day to devote to the saddle.

I've done TONS of research on saddle making and everything I've read says to be EXTREMELY careful not to over-oil because there is no way to remove excess oil. I believe I've heard that it can be detrimental to the leather but don't remember seeing that in writing. Good luck and I hope for your sake I'm wrong about not being able to remove excess (

Thank you Andrew. That's very helpful, it's always good to know a little about the people behind the machinery. I'm a one woman operation working in my "spare time" so if you say good for small jobs, I don't imagine it can't handle what I dish out!! ~ Natalie

Steve - Thank you! I know I was at the Cobra site but I'm pretty sure it was out of my current budget. I'll take another look. Frontpost - Not sure what a helper is...I'm guessing either a guide or platform of sorts. I just found out they import them (don't know where from yet) but they do sell replacement blades and parts. Don't think I want it if its from China. Thank You!!