Rod and Denise Nikkel

OK. Time to dream here. We are curious as to what all the experienced people out there may have thought of doing to saddle trees to check them out. What type of tests do you think would most realistically test the strength of a tree to withstand what it would under steady, proper use? And, not to hijack the thread too much, what kinds of wrecks have you had/heard of and how did the tree fair in them? What were the weak points?

Doug, No offense taken at all. I should have put a smilie behind that sentance. Those of us who don't live within the borders of the US of A always kind of smile and poke a little bit of fun when those from the US seem to forget there is someone else out there. Just wanted to remind ya'll that we exist. One of our prime ministers once stated that being next to the US is like sleeping with an elephant. No matter how good natured the elephant is, you still feel every move...

Interesting topic. I looked around at the linex.com website and it appears that Line-X is the company name that makes a number of different products. If you click on the Industrial Coatings (plural) link, you check under Blast Force Mitigation and it says “The military and the defense industry in the U.S. and other countries, have recognized LINE-X coatings' blast mitigation product, PAXCON® for its high levels of protection.” There is also a Line-X Xtra that has KEVLAR in it. These are different than the standard bedliner, and I doubt these are the products used on saddle trees. In the section on their website called Line-X vs. Spray Ons, they compare themselves to other bedliners. There, under CUT IT, you find "When you cut a LINE-X sample with a sharp knife, notice how the cut nearly disappears. When you cut a competitors sample, it’s easier to find the cut!" The picture alongside is a hand with a small pocket knife. I don’t think you can cut bomb resistant material with a pocket knife. On that same page under RUB IT, they say "Take a sample of LINE-X and rub it together with any other bed liner sample...notice how our higher performance product sands away the softer competition?" What does this do to stirrup leathers over time? Anyone know? I got to go to the “big city” today and drove past a place with a big Line-X sign on it, so my curiosity got the better of me and I went in to ask some questions. The guy who knows the most won’t be back till Monday, so if I find out anything new, I will let you know, but I talked with the guy who knew the second most. He said that the material doesn’t stretch, but that if you drop something in your truck bed that would normally cause a dent, it will still dent. (Even on their website when they say “HIT IT”, they are only comparing the damage done to their product compared to other bedliners, not saying that Line-X protects the metal underneath from deformation.) And when I explained how the product was being used and asked his opinion if it would add strength to the wood, he was pretty skeptical that it would. Overall, Line-X is much faster and much cheaper than rawhide covering a tree. (And you can get it in pretty colors too. Hot pink saddle tree, anyone??) Strength wise, I really doubt Line-X would compare favorably to good rawhide. It is made to protect what is underneath it from scuffs, etc., but doesn’t seem to give additional strength to whatever it is covering. To really compare, someone would need to do what Hidemechanic said and check out comparable trees with both coverings. The problem is that both wood and rawhide are natural materials which vary in strength from hide to hide and from board to board, so it couldn’t just be a “one of each kind” type of trial. There would need to be a “statistically significant” number of trees in the study, and I highly doubt such a trial will ever be done in an unbiased manner. But it would be interesting to see the results. Moisture wise - Line-X should be waterproof, except where there are holes, screws and nails going through it. On the other hand, since we know by experience that it takes over a week sitting in water, even with the varnish scuffed to the max, to get a decent hide softened enough to peel back from the wood, the concern about water damaging rawhide is over-rated. As to something rotting inside either coating, a tree should be made from wood that has 10% or less moisture, so unless water gets in from the outside, rot should never be a problem. But if water does get in, the wood would have a better chance of drying without rotting in a rawhide covered tree. So there are some advantage – speed and cost - to a synthetic over rawhide. But how is it to work with? Glue holding ability? Nail holding ability? Strength is still the biggest question mark.. History tells us what good rawhide will withstand. What about the synthetics? And will we ourselves ever switch to it? Over our comatose bodies. I would have said dead, but “never say never”. OK, Rod says to say dead… Sorry Doug, but the rawhide on our trees comes from bulls from good old CANADA! Johanna, According to They Saddled the West, the first Spanish style trees coming east from Mexico in the 1700's were rawhide covered wood. Earlier than that I don't know, but would be curious if anyone else does.

YES!!!!! That is what people DO do, especially if they are convinced that the cinch should hang vertically and their horse isn't built for that to happen. But, unless they cut the horse in two with the cinch and have nylon all around and minimal padding, as they ride and things stretch and work into place, that saddle will move itself into where it should go - IF it has a place that it does fit and IF they don't hold it too far forward with a breast collar - VERY common problem. The cinch working against the saddle finding its sweet spot would only happen if the saddle was placed too far forward, not too far back. Moving the rigging further forward would mean they wouldn't place it as far out of place forward, but it has the problems talked about in the previous post. So if they don't use a breast collar, their saddle will fit better after it has moved back if it has a 7/8th, 3/4 etc rigging than if it has a full rigging. And if they use a breast collar to hold it out of place, there is more pressure pulling right down over the shoulder blades on a full rigging than one that is further back. So either way, a rigging that is further back would benefit the horse. And having people learn about proper saddling and dispelling the myth of the vertical cinch right behind the elbow would help a whole lot more. Not quite sure what you mean by applying more pressure laterally. On the sides? But not sure why that would contribute to the white spots. Could you explain more, please? BINGO! We have been working through "They Saddled the West" by Lee Rice. He has a chapter called The Montana Three-Quarter Saddle where he talks about east, full double, meeting west, center fire, and people deciding to work a compromise. Interesting history, but we don't know more than that about the origins, and I'll leave the rest of the questions to those who know more about riggings than I do… That's the method we use. EXACTLY. And this is what is hurting a lot of our rope horses today. Go to any roping and you see half? more? of the horses saddled this way. A quote from a recent Western Horseman on breast collars: "Some horses naturally wear a saddle farther back than others. If I roped on them without a breast collar I'd have to move my saddle up after every run." In other words, he saddles too far forward on his horse, and holds it there with a breast collar. A sure recipe for sore shoulders on your horse.

Just some comments, for whatever they may or may not be worth. 1.) Freeze/thaw cycles. If you take a saddle from a warm house to freezing temperatures outside and back in, any of it not in direct contact with horse or rider will freeze and thaw. If you take a saddle from a frozen tack room and ride it, parts of it (the seat and sheepskin under the bars) may thaw depending on temperature, and then refreeze when taken off. Same diff. You'd get more freeze/thaw cycles overall per year in unheated storage during spring and fall as the days are warm and the nights freeze. The question is: does this actually damage the leather? Admittedly, it is not as good for the leather as being kept at a constant temperature, but does it cause enough harm to the leather to be a concern? Experience and history say no. The leather will be damaged by many other things long before freezing will injure it. 2.) A possible perceived animal welfare issue. Is putting a cold saddle on a horse's back the same as putting an ice cube on your own? I would argue no. I have attached a picture taken of one of our horses at 5pm today. It snowed a little overnight, and the temperature got about 0 F today. When it gets really cold, snow stays for days on their backs. A full winter coat has amazing insulating ability. They are not going to notice an ice cube on their back. Agreed that when you put a blanket and saddle on top of it, the insulation is dramatically reduced, but it would be the same as putting one over top my winter jacket is to me – noticeable, but not freezing my skin. Warming a bit, however, is a different story. Frozen metal in contact with moist mucous membranes of the mouth causes "discomfort" until it warms up, and it needs to be warmed. (The Canadian question is not "Did you freeze your tongue to something when you were a kid?" but "What did you freeze your tongue to when you were a kid?") 3.) Humidity. Our different environments will give different answers to your question. The answer here is yes, because they are dry by then, unless they were soaked, which you work to prevent in weather that cold unless absolutely necessary. Water evaporates, even when frozen (check the old ice cubes in your fridge) and the low humidity we have out here means this is almost never a problem. I would think that areas of higher humidity, or wide changes in humidity (outside to inside causing condensation) would cause more problems with leather than the temperature changes.

Sorry Alan but we have to disagree with your basic premise that rigging determines tree position. The idea that rigging position affects where the saddle sits is a misconception, unless the tree doesn’t fit at all. If the shape of the bars match the shape of the horse’s back, it is like setting two spoons together. With any movement at all, they adjust themselves so the bowls fit together. In the same way, the saddle will move till its curves most closely match the curves on the horse’s back – rightly or wrongly. It is only when the curves don’t match well anywhere that the rigging position can affect the saddle position. Part of what we see as a problem is the misconception that there is correct "sweet spot" for the cinch, that it needs to hang vertically and sit right behind the horse’s elbow. Why? It can go anywhere on the underline of the horse between the back of the elbow (so it doesn’t rub there) and the back of the sternum. The old center fire rigs didn’t have their cinches sitting behind the elbow. And there is no rule that says it has to be vertical either, though it can be. That depends a lot of the shape of the horse. If the horse narrows a lot towards the front, the cinch will tend to move there and will run forward at an angle. In some horses, the back of the shoulder blade is above or even back of the spot behind the elbow where people think the cinch “should” go. To make a cinch hang vertically here, the rigging would hang off the front bar tips or the saddle would be placed on top of the shoulder blades. On a horse like this, the cinch will slant forward, but if the tree fits, it will not cause it to move out of position. So what effect does a rigging position have on the fit if it doesn’t move the saddle out of position? A rigging basically pulls down. Even if it slants forward, the vector laws you talked about in that old post, Alan, say that the majority of the force is down, with only a little forward if the cinch slants a bit forward. Practically, if a tree fits well the shape holds it in place and the small amount of forward force on it by a slanting cinch will not cause interference with the shoulders. If it does, it is because it doesn’t fit well and the cinch can pull it forward. More problems are caused by riggings set too far ahead. The further forward the rigging is set, the further forward the downward pull is centered, regardless of how they are made. Most full riggings are made so that front cinch pulls down solely or primarily on the front of the tree. Unless the back cinch is done up snug to help balance that (and we all know how many people ride with hanging back cinches) it has a much greater probability of interfering with the shoulders due to the increased pressure on the front of the tree, in effect reducing the relief built into the bar tips for the shoulder blades. Though it seems counter-intuitive, the best place for rigging on a horse where you are worried about shoulder interference is further back as it spreads the pull over the whole tree, not just the front of it. That means less pressure on the front of the bars, giving more room for the shoulder blades to slide under the relief built into the bar tips, which happens during the un-weighted phase of their stride.

There is a whole science devoted to how to best preserve ancient artifacts, including parchment. Museums not only store them in special cases with precisely controlled temperature and humidity, but also, I believe, with a specific gas composition within the case. So for absolute, maximal preservation, everything is maintained perfectly with no variations. Now let's get practical. Horse gear will be used outside in below freezing temperatures, as it has been for hundreds of years. If the leather wouldn't stand up to it, it would be made with something else by now. And which is harder on the saddle – going from 70 F to 0 F then back to 70 F, or staying at a more constant temperature, even if it is below freezing? When you bring something inside from very cold temperatures the first thing that happens is that you get all kind of condensation on it from the temperature change. (Fogged up glasses for example.) You are better off leaving a cold saddle in the cold tack room. We have experienced 50 below with no ill effect to our saddles at all. For people not used to living with cold temperatures for a long period of time, I can see this being a question to be answered. For those of us who do, it's almost a no-brainer. "Of course not!" On the other hand, that old thread on dealing with mold on saddles was an eye-opener for us. Not a problem when you live where there is basically no moisture in the air. Different experiences, different knowledge. That is why this place is so great. You get to learn a lot without having to learn it the hard way!

A couple questions for you now, if you don't mind... We had a saddle maker send us some information from the American Military Saddle 1775-1945 book (or maybe that is just the chapter?) on the McClellan Saddle Tree. It talks about the early patterns as being 1859 and 1864. From this maker we also learned that there is difference in pommel shape between the Federal and Confederate 1859 McClellan trees. As well, there are differences in the trees between 1859 and 1864. So I am wondering how you are changing a 1904 saddle to a 1858 saddle. Are you modifying the tree or leaving it alone and just changing the leatherwork? I am assuming there are changes in that too. All the information we received was on the tree. Just curious. Learning more history on saddles lately and this is another branch to go down. Thanks.

Steve, We use a Spar Varnish on our trees, designed for above water use on boats, etc. It is very water resistant, but they still don't say to use it for the underwater stuff. We use the matte finish because glues will hold to it without scuffing, which breaks the water barrier of the varnish and may make it more susceptible to moisture damage. I think the more shiny finishes are a bit harder, but often need to be scuffed to hold glues well. Talk to knowledgeable people about the pros and cons of the different varnishes. Make sure you use an adequate number of coats of it and fill any gaps in the seams well if it will be exposed. And post some pictures as you go too! Would love to see how it is coming along.

Kevin, you can PM Dennis Lane directly as he is a member here under his own name. He is great to talk with and can give you the scoop on the cards. I was holding off reposting the picutres in hopes that the old posts will be returned shortly. We are still on dial up so it takes a while to upload the pictures, but I will if the black out lasts longer than the next week or so, or if you really want them back earlier. Just PM me with a reminder and I will make the time to do it. Denise

Ryan, Glad to hear he is doing better. Please keep us informed on his progress.

We're about 7 hours north of you, Beav, just out of Valleyview, Alberta. It is only about a 2 hour drive from our place to Dawson Creek, BC, Mile 0 of the Alaska highway, and if any of you have driven up to Alaska that way, you went right through Valleyview. (Did you blink?) We were down just north of Calgary over the Christmas holidays and for fun I inquired into land prices in the area. They were going for two times per acre what an open quarter (160 acres) goes for up here, which reminded me why we live so far north. Mountain views are nice, but we can afford the beauty around here! Not as many cowboys up here as in the southern part of the province, but still enough. And our business is mainly over the phone and shipping by mail anyway, so long as we have a source of hides (1 1/2 hour drive) and good wood (4 hour drive once as year).

One thing to keep in mind is that any of the courier companies will tack on a not insubstantial brokerage fee, payable by the recipient, to take anything across the border. It is also difficult to get them to estimate that fee for you. Sending by mail there is no fee for the border crossing. Just something to keep in mind so your customer doesn't get a surprise bill along with the item they paid you to ship.

Nice puppies - all of them. But none of them are Taylor the Wonder Dog. We got her between Christmas and New Years at Y2K time as an unknown age young adult. A friend had brought her home from a roping clinic to which she had been brought with the statement "If anyone wants her, they can take her, otherwise I will take her home and shoot her. She's useless!" They couldn't have been more wrong. Mainly border collie, maybe with a bit of Australian shepherd mixed in. Not a stock dog, but perfect for her job of being a great pet. She won't go in any garden, even if you throw her rope in in accidentally. Stands on the side (toes right next to the dirt) and looks at you saying, "I'm not allowed in. You have to go get it." We can leave her alone in the shop with fresh rawhide and she won't touch it. I didn't like her going to the horse pasture, eating you-know-what and coming back breathing on me. So now she won't go into the pasture - even if the gate is open - unless she is invited. She is now about 9 at least, but looks and acts 3. I hope she stays that age for another 20 years or so. I don't know what I'd do without her. We got some canaries this spring after our old, inside cat died. Here is Taylor checking out Mellow, Dee and Figaro.

Seems to be working better now, Johanna. Maybe a dead mouse works? It was about midnight last night when the trap snapped, and while my Great White Knight, Sir Roderick, was gallantly rescuing me by removing the mouse from the trap, I was doing something that may have resembled an incantation of sorts. (Pet rodents - fine. Wild ones running uninvited around my house - different sort of creatures (and reactions) altogether.) It just had a bit of a time lag to it???

Johanna, Once again I am being logged out when I get off the site. Not every time, but often. It did this a while back and you fixed it then, so hopefully it is a simple fix again. Thanks for all your work to get everything up and running again. Denise

DITTO TOO!! (or is that redundant?) But the sentiment is real.

Not that we know about either.

Dennis Lane is a member here under his own name. Just PM him, and he will get back to you.

Mulefool, Yes, we are working with the cards and figuring out how the numbers from the cards fit into our current way of making trees. It is such an easy way to communicate the shape of the animal. The cards are a compilation of back drawings from horses, but we would sure recommend you get a set and start using them on mules as well. We have not made a pile of mule trees, but we have received positive feedback on the ones we have made. From what we know now, we would expect the cards that go across the back (positions A, B and C) would fit mules in the same way as they fit horses. The correlation between the cards is what defines the twist, so that would work for mules as well. The only place the current system might not work well is with the rock patterns. Mules, as a general rule, are much flatter than horses, so while the flattest rock pattern that Dennis has might fit some mules, generally they would need something flatter. And this is where you would come in. Dennis's whole aim putting out this system is not to make money from it (he only recoups his costs on the cards) but to help the industry as a whole by developing a better way of communicating shape and size. So he is asking people who use the system to help contribute to filling in any blanks in it, and mules are one of the blanks. If you have access to a number of mules, you could really help develop the system to include mules, and thus benefit all mule owners and saddle makers faced with building for a mule. What Dennis is asking from anyone using his system is the results from the horses they try it on (he has results sheets all made up to just fill in and send back to him). And if you are finding horses or mules that are outside the system in any way, to send him the back drawings from those animals (taken in the same place his system goes). Then the information all goes into his database and gets compiled to help make the system better. In your case, he would use your results along with others to create rock patterns that would fit mules. Would it mean one or two or three more patterns? Depends on what you find when you take the patterns from a pile of mules. That is the fun part - figuring out, in a measurable way - the differences. Just as an aside, from the results sent back from North America compared to what he has found in Australia, Dennis has already found that North American horses tend (very generalized here) to be larger further back (C position) even if they are the same at the withers (A position). In other words, we need more twist in our trees for the mythical "average" North American Quarter Horse than they do in Australia for their "average" horse. These are the types of things that what we can discover when we have a consistent system. If this system does get widely used, we might be able to learn all sorts of things, including whether there really is a difference in twist in the "average" mule and the "average" horse, and just how much flatter mules can be than horses.

Getting the right saddle fit is a lot like buying women’s clothing – no number, size or description means anything specific, and different maker's trees all fit differently. You have to try them on to know how they fit. There is nothing like comparing how different trees sit on different horses to start developing an eye as to what fits best. So if you have the option of getting a few of different trees to check out, do it. If not, when you call to order the tree, talk to the tree maker, describe as best you can the horses you are trying to fit and go with their recommendation as a starting point because they know the numbers that go with the sizes and shapes that they make. But you can’t take any number – gullet width, hand hole width, gullet height, etc. - transfer it between makers and expect the same fit. There are just too many variables involved, and they all, well… vary. With the bad news out of the way, your specific question was about a saddle “pinching a horse’s shouldersâ€Â. I’m assuming at this point that you are talking about the shoulder blades themselves and not the area behind the shoulder, which is another discussion. This can happen for a number of reasons, and you need to understand what may cause it so that you know how to prevent it. Some horses are built with shoulders that are flat. Some horses are built with shoulders that bulge out. It is these bulgy ones that tend to “be pinched†by a saddle that would be fine on a flatter shouldered horse because there is such a difference of width in such a short distance. Some of these horses need to have the front bar tip cut back a bit to avoid the bulk of the shoulders. Proper relief or "flare" is also vital on these horses. Poor horse conformation causes all sorts of problems getting saddles to fit well. A common problem is that the saddle is being placed too far forward on the horse compared to where it was made to fit, and then held there by a breast collar. Trees are commonly made to fit behind the shoulder blades, flaring out at the front to allow full shoulder rotation. If the front is flared out, it means that the tree narrows as it goes back. If you take that tree and stick it too far forward, then a narrower point of the tree is on top of the shoulder blades. If you then force it to stay there with the breast collar, you will be putting excess pressure on that horse’s shoulders even if the tree fits perfectly if it were allowed to go where it is supposed to sit. Go to any roping and you will likely see a high percentage of horses saddled like this. Any rider can benefit by looking at a bare tree on a horse and seeing where it is supposed to fit (where the shape of the bottom of the bar matches the shape of the horse’s back). It would surprise a lot of people. Saddle construction can cause shoulder pinching too. If the skirts aren’t blocked well, or at all, they will go straight forward rather than following the curve of the front bar tip. This can negate the relief built into the bars of the tree and rub and pinch a horse even if the bare tree fitted well. Finally, to the tree. Assuming you have the correct width and angle to the bars to fit the rest of the horse, you can still have problems with the shoulder blades if there is not enough relief or “flare†built into the front bar tips. If the front bar tips are straight and blunted, the shoulder blades will run into this “wall†as they rotate back. If the front bar tips are rounded well, they won’t interfere with the shoulder blades. There is no measurement for this. You need to see how each tree maker shapes their front bar tips to know what you are getting. (Thanks to Blake for clarifying some of the following information: The shoulder blade rotates so the back of its top edge is farthest back when the leg is fully extended forward. This is a non-weight bearing position, which allows the shoulder blade to slide under the front bar tip a slight amount, if it has enough relief, which wouldn’t be possible if it were bearing weight at that stage of the stride. This is why some situations that look like they should cause problems really don’t. When weight bearing, the shoulder blade is more upright, so that back corner is farther forward. It has to be beyond the range of any contact with the tree at this stage or its movement will be impeded and other problems will be caused.) If my assumption is wrong and you are asking about getting the correct width and angle between the bars to fit the horse, that can be another dissertation – later…

I've been thinking a bunch over the last couple of days on what has been written here. No hijacking at all. This all fits in with what I was wondering about. My own thinking seems to fit with what you all are saying; that it is most important to have the right attitude toward learning. That starts with the attitude of being respectful of the teacher, including not asking questions if they don't want you to. Maybe that was part of "the old cowboy way" in that in is often only when we are humbled by failure on our own that we are willing to listen to someone else, so they let the "young guys" have it rough in order to develop that respect and true desire to learn before they would offer them any help. The problem with that way is that some people have that respect and desire without the hard knocks, and how do you know who they are? It might show up in that someone really willing to learn will be attentive to everything and will listen to the teacher. (You don't learn a lot when you are talking, especially if your questions/attitude cause the teacher to clam up.) I know we can learn from everyone (even if it what not to do) but we don't have to swallow and accept everything presented to us without evaluating it and deciding if it fits us. However when we do disagree on something, how we deal with that says more about who we are than how much we know. I think as we gain experience in our trade and life we learn the qualities (skills, personalities, ability and willingness to teach) in the people we want to spend our time listening to. And probably the teachers (any of us at some level) learn by experience the qualities in the people they want to spend their time teaching as well. It makes sense that you need to have a base of knowledge of some sort before you can learn more in any area. Sometimes it takes some experience to learn that "conventional wisdom" can be right, and that is back to "the old cowboy way" of not helping till a person has that base. Some people still need to figure out that they could learn a lot if they didn't already know so much. But some people who don't have that base are seriously trying to get it, and questions along the line of "What about this idea?" may not be the result of arrogance and looking for short cuts. It may be sheer ignorance, where a helping word or two could go a long way to building up a "newbies" knowledge base to where they know more of what they need to know. Being told "If you don't know already, I'm not going to tell you" is not helpful (to which any husband of a crying wife can attest). Bruce said, "You can't expect to learn everything for free, nor should it be closed and carried to the grave either. The answer is somewhere in the middle." Good point. I think that part of the desire for the knowledge is seen in the willingness to pay for it. No, I sure don't think that every "tip and trick" that one maker shows another should have a monetary value attached. Sharing information between people is the basis of this whole forum, and it is fantastic what is going on here. I would like to see a whole lot more of it going on in the world of saddles as a whole. But to expect to be given (ie. to feel like it is owed to you just because you for asked it) information that another has worked years to acquire and perfect shows arrogance and disrespect to the teacher. Putting a value on your information will weed out most of the people who aren't serious and who don't have either the respect or the desire to really learn. It will also weed out some that have the "right" qualities but who don't have the cash in hand. If the student is willing to pay, then whether the teacher chooses to charge or give is up to them. Conversely, if the teacher is charging for information, then they need to teach all the information they are being paid for. The old trick of providing an old family recipe but leaving out an ingredient just is not right/fair. Russ's teacher showed true integrity when he gave Russ what he was being paid for, even knowing that Russ could become a "competitor". And Russ showed it by being up front at the beginning. By doing so, they created a relationship that doesn't sound too competitive to me. If you respect someone who has done good to you, you don't stab them in the back. And that goes both ways. I still don't, and probably never will, understand the attitude of never telling your secrets. I can see "not throwing your pearls before swine"; in other words, making sure that the person you give your valuable time and information to will treat it with respect, even if they don't decide to use it for themselves (which they hopefully will). But being so afraid that someone will hurt you with your information that you conceal it from everyone? I prefer "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Thinking about the guys who all covered their work when their felllow craftsmen walked past: Can you imagine the quality of work they could have put out if they had collaborated, and how much further ahead the industry would be today? Their working environment would have been much better, and their company would have put out better saddles, which means the profit could rise too. Yes, maybe there would have been a bad apple in the bunch, but overall, the lower stress levels and higher productivity would probably have offset any damage that one guy could do. Maybe it is idealistic, and I hope I never end up in such an environment that I will need to put my theories into action, but it just makes more sense that we get farther if we work together. . Bruce, what you say about the industry makes a lot of sense. There will always be piles of low quality production saddles. And there will always be a few "upper end" makers who make relatively few saddles. Even with all the good information available today, I still wonder what is the best way to help these "midlevel makers" see the benefit in some of the good "conventional wisdom", or even understand that it is out there? I think Darcy has hit on a key one: But is there anything else that others can do to help them develop both their knowledge base and their desire to learn to the point that they will truly be able to learn more? Maybe it is the idealism coming through again, but I do think that as we build others up, we grow as well. Whether they walk through the door to greater knowledge or not us up to the individual, but how wide we open it and how we entice them to peek in may have a lot to do with their choice.

There are at least five components that all need to be looked at when checking out a saddle fit problem - the horse, the rider, the padding and "extras", the saddle and the tree. Any and all can cause the problem you mention. Here's our idea of how you can check them out, easiest ones first. 1.) Are the pads worn unevenly? Is the extra weight on the saddle (saddle bags, etc.) even? Is the breast collar even? Take everything off the saddle, use a good pad and have the owner go for a ride. Still have the problem? You've ruled out the padding and extras. Problem gone? Figure out what component was causing it. 2.) Have the same rider use the saddle on different horses. Have the same problem consistently? You've ruled out the horse. Problem gone? The horse is uneven. It happens more often than we think. 3.) Have at least one other rider use the saddle in the same way the owner does. Have the same problem? You've ruled out the rider. Problem gone? The rider is either built unevenly, or rides unevenly. You might have to be diplomatic in telling someone they ride crooked, but this kind of a test makes it pretty obvious. (Note: Some ropers purposefully ride with uneven stirrups. Check that out too.) 4.) Now you are down to the saddle. Rigging, stirrup leathers, groundseat. The saddle makers here can tell you a lot more than I can about how to check for evenness. 5.) If they all check out, then you have to rip things apart to check out the tree - Is it broken? Has it warped? Was it built symetrically to start with - bars, cantle, forks, how it was put together? We find that going at these problems systematically is worth it, since so many things are involved. It would be a shame to rip a saddle apart to find out that the rider consistently puts 2, 500 ml bottles of meds on the same side as his fencing pliers are attached and then hangs his canteen on that side too. Tree makers and saddle makers are human and make mistakes and miss things. Never say never. "More things are missed by not looking than not knowing." Our 2 cents worth (worth about 2 cents US today)

Disclaimer off the top: This is Denise. Please don't hold Rod liable for any of this post. In the November Western Horseman there was an article on the Severe Brothers and how Duff had learned braiding from Luis Ortega. It said "He could sit and watch Ortega braid till his heart was content, but he couldn't ask any questions". This got me thinking about saddle makers and something I, in my mind, think of as "the old cowboy way". I didn't grow up in the cowboy culture and it still strikes me as odd that, as much as their word and their handshake were as good as a signed legal deal, and as much as they had barn raisings and helped out in times of disaster etc. etc., they wouldn't help someone else learn. Kids and newcomers were expected to observe and figure things out for themselves, even if it meant they got hurt. Asking a question seems to have been almost akin to an insult at times. Secrets, especially in the saddle trade, were jealously guarded and often taken to the grave. And, if you were lucky enough, and you had stood up to the hard knocks well enough that you proved yourself in some unspoken fashion, someone might take pity on you and actually tell you or show you something. At least, that is how it appears to me to have been. Having worked for a couple of ranchers who held to this philosophy I know that it still exists to a certain extent in the ranching world. I would think it still exists in the saddle making industry. I believe things have opened up immensely in the last twenty years, especially in the last ten or so. But I was wondering - do any of you still find that you have to "prove yourselves" somehow in order to be on the receiving end of good information? What do you think is, or seems to be, necessary before someone will teach you? Those of you who have come up through "the old cowboy way",do you see any value in it? And looking to the future, what might be the best way to teach and mentor new saddle makers, encouraging them to go for top quality without disparaging where they currently are, yet not wasting your time either? Lots of questions. Curious about what the answers might be...

Here is the other side of the coin. We don't have a business name as such and never have had. We just go under "Rod Nikkel, Saddle Tree Maker" even though the business is officially a partnership. Yes, we have a tax number and accountant and do all the bookwork. They checked things out and this is, indeed, legal (at least in Alberta and Saskatchewan- "Some local restrictions may apply") though unusual (so are we). Reason - we still get the benefits of running our own business, but don't have some of the associated costs. Business bank accounts have higher fees. We have a separate personal bank account for our business with no fee. It means the cheques need to come to Rod personally, and if the bank ever decided to get sticky if someone writes “Nikkel Saddle Trees†on it, we would need to get another cheque. But this is a small town… Business phone lines are not eligible for some of the long distance plans. We only have the one phone line and feel it is legitimate to not have to pay business rates to call our families. Those benefits alone have saved us hundreds of dollars over the years. So if you can legally do business under just your own name, it might save you some money. On the other hand, it isn’t like too many people will get us mixed up with the “the other tree maker down the roadâ€Â. Or else it is an awfully long road…